www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Any changes in the method of dating Pascha

Dn. Anthony,

Many of the arguments I've read in favor of the Old Calendar seem to suggest that the Fathers of the Council of Niceaea were themselves astronomers, devised the table for determining the date of Pascha themselves and promulgated that table at the Council. If this were the case, then it would be the table itself that had the force of law, and not merely the principles behind it. I find it hard to believe this was the case.

Having said that, though, there seems to be *something* about the Old Calendar that goes beyond any of the arguments being given for or against it, and this would help to explain the deep attachment that many in the East have to it. Perhaps once we've resolved the real issues that keep us divided it will be possible to address the matter of calendars from a new perspective. In the meantime it stands as a kind of symbol of our division.

(FWIW, most of the Ukrainian Catholics I know like the Old Calendar just because it's what they use in Ukraine ...)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Yes, as said eloquently before link; so do I.


I am still wanting to find out what that "*something*" is? I ask myself, what arguments in this thread, in the recent previous one link, in the references I provided, elsewhere, have shown that the Julian calendar and its dating of Pascha is not seriously flawed?



On the basis of the "givens" I would have thought that this calendar issue should be straightforward to resolve. On the basis of some of the polemics, I see it as being for some not only a symbol of but also a vehicle for division. At what point does not just ignoring verifiable facts but then continuing to assert fabrications and fantasies to the contrary with an assurance, conviction and confidence that is unsurpassed degenerate to the level of negligence and deception?

As I noted before in a lengthy post, the Julian calendar is an option but "Whatever the solution, let�s know what may be lost and what it is we must retain." And in order to appreciate what is at stake, the Julian calendar charades must be exposed and end.


Dn. Anthony

I might suggest that a real desire to have done with the acrimony would involve a recognition that there has been serious abuses of Churches and people in the imposition of the Gregorian Calendar, and a promise that such pressure will absolutely stop. It would then be helpful to consider just what the results have been for the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Greek-Catholic Churches which have attempted to introduce the Gregorian Calendar.

Fr. Serge

Mars has the same Lord as we do.

What is the Date of Pascha on Mars?

Indeed. Just the other day he said to me with great satisfaction יהוה אחד (He's been studying Hebrew too!).



He assures me that in 2008 it will be on the date corresponding to Earth's March 23.

I dont really see a problem as to how we determine Easter, the problem comes in with following differnt calendars.
Either the Orthodox would have to come into the 21st Century and in line with most of the World in its use of a Calendar or
the Roman Catholic Church should just follow the calendar of the Orthodox Church. Which in my estimation would be much more likely to happen.
Stephanos I

I'm really not trying to split hairs but I think there is a misunderstanding.

The Julian Calendar is not followed by all of the Orthodox churches worldwide.

Secondly, the Julian Calendar is followed by the majority of Greek Catholics worldwide.

I'm not sure what calendar you are referring to when you say the 'calendar of the Orthodox church'? Also, not all members of the universal Catholic church would have to make the adjustment, some of us are already on the Julian calendar.

Monomakh

I have thought for some time that this calendar issue long ago degenerated into:
My calendar is more holy than yours.
Is not!
Is too!...and on and on...

I read that tonight and enjoyed the article. It was a succinct description of the basics of what goes in to the calculation.

No doubt on both sides of the issue. I wonder though how the average person knows what's happening. Who among us has ever checked the Golden Number and Dominical Letter and used their Epach Table (shouldn't we have been given one at baptism?) to confirm the date of Pascha? We are basically just told when it is to be celebrated. This begs the question, have the people, perhaps, been schooled over the course of generations, for the good of their souls, to flee from THE "HETERODOXXXXX" GREGORIANNNNN CALLLL-ENNNN-DARRRRRRRRR? One has only to read that great source of mis-information calling itself the "Orthodox Information Center" link [orthodoxinfo.com] & link [orthodoxinfo.com] & link [orthodoxinfo.com] to see what I mean. Then the people are told that what was drilled into them as being heterodox and the fruit of humanistic depravity is what they now must accept, and moreover they will be forced to do so. If that situation doesn't self-detonate just throw in the match labeled Ecumenical -- ecumenical they have learned means spawned by the devil.

Pascha is a movable feast and we are accustomed to the fact that it moves around from year to year. If the Julian Calendar were to be fixed (i.e. conforming to the Nicean determination) those who use it would notice that Pascha still moves around as before only earlier in the season, closer to the equinox, to the beginning of spring in the northern hemisphere, where it was intended by Nicea to be. Unless I'm missing something, that's it.

The bigger jolt would come in the adjustment of the fixed feasts. Just as Gregory XIII had to make a 10 day adjustment, a 13 day adjustment in the Julian Calendar date would now be needed so that the equinox would be nominally on March 21, that is, realigned with the date of the equinox at the time of Nicea I.

Also, the determination of leap years would be slightly modified to keep the equinox fixed at March 21.

Dn. Anthony

Yes, this is an excellent, excellent, article.

In particular it makes very clear the intent and context of the canons that are incorrectly claimed to require that Pascha follow Passover:




My only qualification is to point out that for understandable reasons of ... diplomacy? ... sensitivity? ... discretion? ... he says


which can give the impression that they are more or less equally imprecise. It should be emphasized that this is not the case: the Gregorian method achieves what is required, it keeps the date of the equinox stabilized around March 21; the Julian method does not.

Dn. Anthony

I dont know if I clarified what I meant in the best of terms.

I blieve that we both caculate Easter according to the same method,which was set by the First Oecumenical Council of Nicea. Do we not?
Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox.
We have different dates because we follow different Calendars.
Stephanos I

My Dear Fr Deacon Anthony,

You are a man with a mission. A man with a mission is a lot like a dog with a bone. I don't fool with either.

God bless you for trying to help us poor folk who are content with our backwards Old Calendar see the light.

The problem with me is that I am invincibly ignorant. So in your charity please remember in your prayers the pitiable Archpriest David who doesn't see the need to reform the Church calendar, who likes the Christian Passover to fall after the Jewish, and who doesn't mind celebrating Pascha in late April or early May. You can console yourself by remembering that it is you who are right.

My son-in-law (an OCA priest) would agree with you 100%, if that's any consolation.

Fr David Straut

The one thing I will say is that if you're going to use a calendar, you should use one calendar. I think using one for fixed feasts and another for movable ones doesn't make sense. At least not to me. That's one thing I think the Orthodox Finns got right.

[Linked Image]

Father bless, and thank you for your kind words. -- Dn. Anthony