www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Any changes in the method of dating Pascha

Hasn't the Orthodox Church in the Czech Republic and Slovakia done the same (adopt the Western Paschalion and Gregorian Calendar)?

I agree with this, at least within a parish. I have no problem serving a number of parishes, some on one calendar system, one on the other. The difficulty for me personally is when I'm trying to serve in a parish that is in some way attempting to use both.

Dear Father David,

Thank you - it's nice to be appreciated! And a joyous feast of the Encounter.

fraternally in Christ,

Fr. Serge

The irony is that, if what I said above is correct, this implements the more jolting aspect of the adjustment while retaining and perpetuating that which is the very source of the discrepancy (Julian calendar "traditional Paschalia"): a hybrid bound to have problems. At least the Julian Calendar within itself is basically consistent (the lunar error accumulating at a slower rate than the solar error).

Dn. Anthony

I am the original writer of this thread. One of my questions has not been answered, anybody willing to take a crack at it?? Is there any attempt to bring Gregorian using Eastern Catholics back into the Julian fold?
Also the talk of "Orthodox Calender", Many Orthodox churches around here celebrate the Nativity on Gregorian Dec 25 but Pascha on Julian April 27th. That seems to throw a monkey wrench into many of the arguments listed here.
Thanks to all!!

I am not aware of any but I'm not up on that topic. But is that what was asked?



After reading this discussion, would you still inquire about placing "Paschs in its' rightful place, after the Jewish passover"? Is that its rightful place?




Is this still your understanding?



"monkey wrench" -- What in particular did you have in mind?

[Also to be precise, many Orthodox churches celebrate Pascha on Julian calendar date April 14 (2008) which is Gregorian calendar date April 27 (2008).]

Dn. Anthony

I really really don't understand the Dec 25th and yet April 14th feast placements.
Way off the beaten path and I know this it totally sentimental in value but it just seems a little ironic that we here in northwestern Pa. have a better chance at taking a Easter sleigh ride than we did at Christmas. The chance of having snow on the ground in mid March is actually higher than in December. Just a comment on what "feels" like Easter/spring. I am totally aware this has nothing to do with theology.

There are some people stuck in New-Calendar parishes who would like to be in a position to restore the Julian Calendar. But they are unlikely to make an issue of it. Those who are able to travel are likely to take a quiet "holiday" to spend Pascha in a parish observing the traditional calendar.

Fr. Serge

It is probable (and I hope) that, at the end, the Catholic Church just follow the calendar of the Orthodox Church.
But this not because the calendar of the Orthodox Church is more right.
This only because of love for our brothers.

Love of your brothers is not the worst of motives.

Father Serge

Gregorian users accept Julian calendar or vice versa: Brotherly love goes both ways. But I can't speak for my brother only myself.

As I have said, using the Julian calendar is an option but know what is at stake. To me accepting the Julian calendar would be a tragedy because it is demonstrably inferior to the Gregorian: to accept it would be something like the athlete who throws the game.

So "the Catholic Church just follow[s] the calendar of the Orthodox Church." But were I to do so, when my Julian calendar brother says we are now following the Council of Nicea I will have to say NO, we are not; when he says we are now correct in that Pascha must follow Passover, I will have to say that is not true and actually is contrary to the canons; when he says we now follow the more accurate calendar, I will have to say please don't continue to say that it is embarrassingly incorrect; when he says we understand that our liturgical time is harmonized with the cosmos I will have to say that it is our Gregorian Calendar brothers not us who's Pascha is illuminated by the vernal sun and moon. It is our brothers in the Latin Church who on their Gregorian Calendar day of Dec. 21, the time of the actual northern winter solstice (not like us who pretend it's 13 days later), it is they who on that darkest day of the year sing "O Oriens, splendor lucis aeternae, et sol justitiae: veni, et illumina sedentes in tenebris, et umbra mortis." link [domcentral.org] , and demonstrate they know what harmony is all about.

Know the facts, know what should be yes and what should be no, and then (NKJ Matthew 5:37) "...let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Dn. Anthony

Why can't we all fast and pray about this and then have the openness and humility to follow the resulting answer? It's obvious that humanly no one's going to give up an inch.

A) why does pluralism so disturb some people that they cannot rest until they have somehow coerced somebody into adopting the Gregorian Calendar (and thereby split yet another Local Church)?

B) if a "common date for Pascha" means that much to such people, why are they seemingly incapable of using the one that is already available (following the Julian Calendar) but must instead force something else on those of us who ask nothing more than to be allowed to keep the feasts in peace?

C) "correct" is an interesting term to use in the discussion. Does it mean "correct according to sidereal time"? Does it mean "correct according to modern science"? Does it mean "correct according to the Typicon"? Do those who insist that we who retain the Julian Calendar possess copies of the Typicon, let alone know how to read it and use it?

Fr. Serge

Yes, remembering, of course, that humility is truth.


Given the above fasting, praying and humility I am confident we can reach an accord. The calendars -- Julian, Gregorian -- after all are the creation of Man not God. Our calendars are grids that we construct and superimpose on the primordial calendar given us by God, the celestial events. And as good rational sheep, we should be able to, we are obliged to apply reason and construct the grid as best we can, conforming to the "the decisions of the Fathers," and making good sense.

Dn. Anthony

How or why a calendar is imposed is a pastoral or disciplinary issue beyond my purview. It may be a legitimate issue; it is not my issue.

From what I've read (see links in my previous posts) concerning the interpretation of the facts, the vehemence and polemics are coming from the Julian camp.

As for who is wanting whom to move or switch, consider the initial post in this thread:


As I've said, the Julian calendar is an option, it just hasn't done a sufficiently good job in what we should want a calendar to do, i.e. keep the seasons fixed at or around specific dates.


The term "correct" is not properly applied to a calendar. A calendar is a grid (the days) that we superimpose on nature, i.e. on the seasons as arising from the positions of the sun and Earth. It is a construction of convenience that is not inherent; calendars are defined not discovered. A calendar of a single fixed number of days cannot be synchronized with repeatable "positions": corrections are needed which must be in 1 day increments at properly spaced times (leap years, leap centuries etc.). A calendar of 365 or 366 or 300 days is possible but the seasons will be moving all over the place relative to the repeating of the calendar (its year).

If the purpose of a calendar is to keep the seasons fixed [as Nicea presumably wants, i.e. the beginning of spring always on (or around) March 21] then the sidereal year is not the standard; the desired measure is the tropical year based on the position at the northern hemisphere spring equinox, i.e. the vernal equinox year. I don't see how sidereal time link [astro.cornell.edu] & link [docs.kde.org] & link [tycho.usno.navy.mil] is directly relevant.

For scientific applications in terms of days it is best to use the Julian day or date system which is not based on any calendar but is itself a simple calendar; it does not repeat but is just a continuous count of days from a specified origin. If one applies modern science to find the vernal equinox-full moon-Sunday specification, and one does so for the meridian that passes through Jerusalem (some place -- longitude -- must be specified) then one has the results determined by the Aleppo study link [oikoumene.org] .

Unless I'm missing something, the/a Typicon, in terms of indicating what should be observed and when, will be internally consistent for either the Julian or Gregorian calendar. If a Julian calendar zealot awoke one day and didn't know the date, and I gave him an unmarked typicon based on the Gregorian calendar, I don't think he'd know the difference. He'd notice that Pascha may be unusually early in the spring and he'd probably be surprised that those heterodox folks are finally observing Christmas when he does.

Dn. Anthony