www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Taize

I had someone jsut tell me yesterday that the monastery of Taize in France is the only place on earth where Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians all worship together, including sharing the Eucharist. There was a movie presented at a church in my hometown that purported to establish this fact, allegedly showing Orthodox bishops and priests serving along with Catholics and Protestants.

Is there aAnyone familiar with this place who can give me some clarification?

BOB

They worship together but do not inter-commune.

They lead a community life that includes a type of "Divine Office" wherein they come together for morning, daytime and evening prayers. At the time of Eucharistic celebrations, each community retreats to the chapel of their background, and then comes together afterwards for more prayer.

This has been mischaracterized by some as intercommunion and by others as some sort of "tandem" or joint celebrations. In fact it is neither.

I know that they have had at leasta few Romainian Orthodox affiliates... But I am not certain it is a large party...

Eastern prayer, chant, and iconography has been incorporated into the life of the community.

The founder, Brother Roger, professed Catholicism and came into communion with the Catholic Church. He was killed by a mentally imbalanced woman who stabbed him in 2005, his successor (whom he had pre-designated) is Brother Alois, also a Catholic.

I have a lot of respect for what they have set out to accomplish.

wiki article [en.wikipedia.org]

Taize homepage [taize.fr]

Great photos [overgrownpath.com]

Orthodox at Taize [taize.fr]

I've heard about Taize and I really like the work they're attempting to do!

SS:

You've confirmed what I had heard many years ago about Taize, but needed it confirmed by someone more familiar with the present reality there. What threw me was the insistence that eveeryone communed together and I never thought that this was the case.

Thanks.

BOB

Well they do commune at the same time... just not together!

Interestingly, I have heard that the Prostestant brothers do sometimes join the Catholic brothers for Eucharistic adoration...

Levels of communion are achieved... just spiritually at this time.

Again, I admire what they are setting out to do. If there was more of THAT, than we would probably all be in a little better shape!

What about the Canons that PROHIBIT praying with Heretics?

They got tossed with same canons that prohibit going to Jewish physicians, but hey maybe you can write Pope Benedict and ask him to reinstate those.

What about the canons that:

demand bishops hold a synod every 6 months?
forbid clergy from serving in the military? (Chaplains??)
forbid over-frequent bathing?
forbid more than one bishop in a city?

Careful what judgement you invite when you start to demand things be measured by ancient canons.

Yes--Beware of shooting canons!

Beware of Cannon Falls (my hometown), actually, I love Cannon Falls, nevermind.

Don't Taize me, Bro!

Or have I been misinformed?

CDL

I really don't know enough about Taize to comment on it, but a lot of it makes me...nervous. I know a lot of traditional-leaning Catholics do not like it *at all* and positively FREAKED OUT when Cardinal Ratzinger gave Brother Roger Communion at Pope John Paul II's Requiem Mass, even if he was actually a convert to Catholicism.

Alexis

Oh, but I think they were mad because at the time it wasn't common knowledge that Brother Roger had converted, so they thought +Ratzinger was giving Communion to a Protestant.

Alexis

Let us see, Brother Roger
+ converted to the Catholic faith,
+ made certain his Catholic brothers always had the Mass celebrated for them even before that,
+ he has encouraged Protestants around the world to reconsider communal live and liturgical prayer,
+ he has introduced untold thousands to iconography and eastern chant in the elements he introduced,
+ he had eucharistic adoration for Catholics, and many Protesants would join
+ has pioneered a style of music and prayer...

These critics... What do they do? What do they think he should have done?

ROFLMBO! Good one CDL!

I enjoy their music.

ALEXIS:

That's probably why relying on those who style themselves "Latin trads," "traditional Catholics," or the current label is a bad idea. So many think they are more Catholic than the hierarchy and those whom the Lord has placed in authroity over the Catholic Church.

I'd have had to ask some of these people later if they thought Cardinal Ratzinger, of all people, would not have known the status of someone of such public stature.

In Christ,

BOB

I am going to go out on a limb and hope that folks who freaked out were unaware of his conversion...

Because if they were aware he was a Catholic, and they were still scandalized a Catholic received Communion...

I never said I defended that. And there are MANY traditional Roman Catholics who didn't say that, and stood up to it. Anyway I'm a "traditional" Roman Catholic and didn't have any worries, except for the appearance of him communing a non-Catholic, but I've always Joseph Ratzinger is a genius and, above that, an exceptionally wise and holy man and would have good reason for doing something like that.

Turns out, he did: Brother Roger was actually Catholic.

Alexis

Alexis, wanted to be clear I didn't think that you said it.

I would just challenge anyone who WOULD say it to come forward and explain why a Catholic convert receiving Communion would cause scandal. I would hope they were just not familiar with his conversion - actually, most people weren't now that I think about it.

So it goes to show, sometimes (most times? all the time?) we don't know the whole story, and worrying too much about what "they are doing" is time we should have been looking at ourselves..

From the Taize wesite:

www.taize.fr/en_article2650.html [taize.fr]

www.taize.fr/en_article3864.html [taize.fr]

More related links in the lefthand column of these two articles.

This thread piqued my interest in Taize and Brother Roger Shutz.

I am not a big fan of the National Catholic Reporter and I've never attended a Taize prayer service, but I found this article to be absolutely excellent and a worthy read. This article also dispels the rumor of intercommunion.

http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2005d/101405/101405a.php

May God bless the community at Taize,
Brother Roger...eternal memory,
Bill

As a Greek Catholic Deacon I am sure that you are aware that Praying with Heretics and going to a Jewish physician have nearly the same relevant similarity as artificially curling hair and striking Clergy.

I take it you claim that bathing frequently or infrequently and is the same as praying with heretics or not praying with heretics. I don't see how anything could be further from the Truth.

For those that care what the Orthodox Fathers teach:

Canon XXXIII of Laodicia
"One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."

Canon LXV of the Holy Apostles:
"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."



For those that care what Post Great Schism Popes say:

If anyone prays with heretics, he is a heretic.
St. Agatho I, SCN:XXI:635

Only Catholics can be Christians.
Pius VI, D. 1500

True Faith cannot be found outside the Church.
Pius IX, Sqi

And who is the arbiter of what weight must be given which canons?

The comment on the bathing seemed a nice red herring while ignoring my question on the canons that:
+ demand bishops hold a synod every 6 months?
+ forbid clergy from serving in the military? (Chaplains??)

Ask your bishop for his ruling on the matter.

If you feel that these folks are in eggregious canonical error for having a community of prayer together, I will leave you to your feelings.

InCogNeat3's thinking seems to be Protestant, except
that instead of of plucking a verse or two from Scripture, the quotes are from various non-binding sources. Laodicia, the Canons of the Holy Apostles (who were unlikely to have had anything to do with them) and Pope Agatho are all very well, but do not amount to a hill of beans since none of them are statements binding on the Church. The quote from Pope
Pius IX is irrelevant. If we are praying with people who are
validly baptized we are therefore praying with people who are
in some sense "in the Church", since they are baptized into
Chist, and are therefore part of His Body and therefore in the
Church, if in imperfect communion with it, from the Catholic
point of view. "All those who have been baptized into Christ
have put on Christ".

Edmac

SS,

I might be be misreading your post, but I believe from reading press releases for years now, that most Orthodox hierarchs do meet in semi-annual synod meetings. If I misread your intent, forgiveness due the season.

Every 6 months for their eparchy as demanded by ancient canons?

Frankly, I don't care if they don't. That isn't the point.

My point was that we can go back and cherry pick the canons we think are important if we want to bash anyone over their head by saying "You are not faithful to the ancient canons!"

Dear Simple Sinner,

Yes, to the first part of your statement. The Holy Eparchial Synod of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese meets not only every six months, but has amended their meeting schedule to every four months as of their last meeting. The Eparchial Synod of the Antiochian Archdiocese meets every six months, etc. Some advertise through news releases their activities publicly and some do not. So this was probably not the best canon to illustrate your point with.

Now to the second part of your statement. I have to agree regarding "cherry picking" of canons. Some were written for certain circumstances and times, that may or may not be applicable today, due to a variety of reasons or changes with cultures and societies. Until such time as the church either revises these canons or comes out with a codification as the Western Church did nearly a century ago, this will be a constant problem that will persist with certain groups and personalities.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Father Anthony the point was entirely and utterly rhetorical and not about any one church. It was also in reference to a canon about what eparchs are supposed to do in their own Eparchy.

Some churches have no way to have a synod within their diocese/eparchy every 6 months - too poor, too persecuted, too far flung...

The point it illustrates is that "Church A" which can meet every 4-6 months is NOT to be considered "more canonical" than "Church B" which does not.

I think we are agreed on the conclusion I am attempting to draw, that firing canons pretty much could managed to indict us all.

I know at least that I have grown fond of daily bathing! (I am decadent like that...)

I think most of those around us and the public at large are most appreciative of that also.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+