www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Eternal Marriage

I just want to point out that what I, AMM and Stephanos are talking about has nothing to do wiht a concept of people marrying or being given in marrage in heaven. The people are already married.

Xpycoctomos, I belong to an ACROD parish. I also attended a marriage class at an Antiochian parish and was told essentially the same thing. We also read Fr. Meyendorff's book as part of that and I enjoyed it as well.

Does this forum have a religious identifier? It would be good to know what POV people are coming from.

Typically it's in your profile.

Thank you.

In my humble opinion:

Certainly an ideal Christian marriage is one in which each find salvation through the other...this is what Orthodoxy commonly teaches, my priest says it alot, and I have personally found this to be true. ((Unfortunately, in today's world, I have seen the opposite far more often-- where ultimately neither married partner has much fear or use for God or the spiritual life).

In sharing a married life together with Christ as its head, and repentance as a practice by both partners, one finds that after a couple of decades, earthly love grows into something quite beautiful and very spiritual.

I find the most love filled memories can be the memories of worshipping Christ, His holy Mother, and the Saints together, whether in prayer of supplication, of honor, or of pilgrimage.
If only all those secular friends and relatives of mine knew that this trumps all those ways of the world that promise marital satisfaction and happiness. Worshipping and praying together creates a deep spiritual bond which feels out of this world rather than of this world.

I have no doubt that, for those of us who have fought the good fight, we will somehow recognize and feel the presence of our loved ones in the world beyond, and that at the moment of death, that will be most comforting-- but that ultimately we will be attached to no one but to the Lord in a sort of 'collective' of praise, adoration, spiritual joy and love. Otherwise, the question of my co-parishioner of 'which wife will I be married to, my deceased or my present' would have been a valid question.

I definitely believe what Father Stephanos said, that we are bonded somehow in an 'eternal' union, but not that this means what our earthly comprehension thinks it may mean. Our union of a life of love and martyrdom for each other should be as special as the love of a mother and the child she has given birth to..something which can't or shouldn't just be tossed aside for this or that reason, as we see all too often (in the case of holy matrimony) in our society. 'What God has brought together let no man tear asunder'. Those are actually quite powerful words...'what God has brought together'.

(I hope that my humble thoughts are on the right track, Father Stephanos...)

In Christ,
Alice,
(who thinks that this snow day at home has brought too much rambling so I will retire my thoughts for the night and please forgive me if they have offended anyone in any way)!

Conversely, what happens, then, if the marriage turns out to be corrosive to one's faith life? That is, a person over time loses his faith because of the partner's either lack of faith or because of the disparity of two completely different approaches to faith?

I know of several cases of young people that I have witnessed where within a year of the marriage the Catholic partner has lapsed from the Faith because of the other partner's latent anti-Catholicism or simply lax attitufe about practicing any kind of regular religious life.

I accept that what we do here has eternal value and I grant you that. My question is what are the consequences of this idea of marraige here being eternal. (I have heard that we, by our example, either take eleven other people with us to Heaven, or to Hell.)

In Christ,

BOB

not 11 but 1000

Acquire the Holy Spirit and a thousand around you will be saved.
--St. Seraphim of Sarov

Bob, there are a lot of good questions that can be asked when one takes into consideration that marriage is eternal. And many of them, I think, cannot be answered or even, perhaps, comprehended by us.

What happens in Heaven or at least after life? Well, I think we should rather ask what SHOULD happen after death. What was meant to happen after life? What was God's plan? God's plan was that the two of you be eternally united in Christ. But this union is not like a chain that is locked on at marriage. It's a promise and the link is perhaps more akin to holding hands. It's voluntary. That doesn't at all imply that whatever you decide is fine or if you both decide that you want to separate that's fine because it's a promise to God as well.

So, what happens to people who have divorced (or got an annullment) and remarried or widowed and remarried? I have no clue. But I do believe that God is not arbitrary in the decisions he makes about our slavation. So, although God's ideal plan is that you marry one person and are united to them eternally, he recognizes that His plan (His Will) is not always "done" on earth.

Does that help at all? I don't claim to be the expert, but that's how I understand it.

I can say that for me personally, the belief that Marriage is not only Earthly but is in heaven (and what that will mean in heaven, I don't know, but it does imply some kind of eternal and unique union) has given marriage such a deeper meaning.

But yes, it does bring up a lot of interesting, and perhaps frustrating, questions, many of which are probably unanswerable.

Xpy

Xpycoctomos,

Though I do not think this particular aspect of Eastern Theology holds many advocates amongst Easterrn Catholics, I think the idea is growning on me.

And I should mention that while I am definitely wearing my heart on my sleeve here, my wish is not to convince others. I re-read my post above and realized that I seemed to express my opinion as fact (using words like "is" and offering few disclaimers like, "it seems to me", etc..). However, I do not know enough to say that this is THE Orthodox POV. I can say, from anything I have read and from what SEEMS to be being confirmed in this thread that it is AN Orthodox POV. I would love to dig deeper. While I believe that the deeper I dig, the more I will see that both ideas were prevalent in the Church early on, perhaps split by regions and schools of thought, I would be interested to see if there was at least a penchant for one over the other, at least in the East.

But I do apologize if anyone here felt my opinion was being expressed a bit forcefully. If I could say I have read a lot on the subject, I might have been less apologetic. But I can't say that I have, yet.

Xpy

Some of the earilest writings on Marriage condemn remarriage even after the death of a spouse. This was not widespread and isn't necessarily held by Orthodox or Catholics.

I like you POV, which is my opinion. I have to say that I have only heard it expressed by a select few in Holy Orthoodxy, though.

Yes, both sides teach the widowed may remarry - except Orthodox/Eastern Catholic clergy. The rule is the married may be ordained but the ordained may not marry... unless the widower is given a dispensation (rare but not unheard of).

What's never made sense to me though I appreciate the historical reason for it and that it's not a bone of contention between the two sides is the Orthodox view of divorce and remarriage. The reason for allowing it was so the wronged party and the children could survive but the theory seems to say 'in this case adultery is OK' since the first marriage is lifelong and indissoluble. Liturgical and fasting rules are within the church's authority to change. I don't think the commandments are!

All Orthodox say that marriage is (as I said in a previous post) for each other's salvation, and that it symbolizes a unique martyrdom of giving one's life for the other.

I think that there are many misunderstandings on this thread.

I do NOT think that anybody is saying anything contrary to the eternal bond or union which the Orthodox marriage ceremony symbolizes and which Orthodox theology teaches, but that our Priests are saying that the emphasis in our earthly marriage is on our mutual salvation.

I also think that we have to be very careful to not read into these words or confuse others into thinking that we somehow believe something which can be construed as heretical like Mormonism. We will not live in Heaven as husband and wife, for we will be like the angels, according to our Lord and Saviour...

Alice, Moderator

P.S. As for how divorce is rationalized into this equation, that is topic for another thread.

So, you don't believe there will be any unique eternal bond carried into heaven between husband and wife?

No one in this thread has tried to speculate what that means in practical terms in heaven. Surely based on patristics we can draw conclusions as to what that does NOT mean, but how exactly a marriage in heaven plays itself out, I have never heard anyone speculate on that.

With that said, I, so far, can't agree with this: "We will not live in Heaven as husband and wife, for we will be like the angels, according to our Lord and Saviour".

I can agree that what husband and wife MEANS will be different (How, I don't know) but IF there is an eternal and unique bond that was given to my wife and I through the Church, I have to believe that becuase of that bond, she is, by definition, my wife and I am her husband. This is not defined by our physical relationship and the fact that she is having our first son. But by the sacramental union that is, apparently, considered by some in the Orthodox Church, to be eternal.