www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Munhall Cathedral Rumor...

Here's the report:

Do they use the RDL pewbook? Yes.

Do the sing the music as it is written in the RDL pewbook? No,
especiall the music they chose to sing for the Cherubic Hymn, which was not found in the RDL pewbook.

There were things that supprised me, the length of liturgy, most of the parishioners not singing, the use of an Eucharist minister, etc.

Ung

The length of the liturgy? Was it too long or too short?

Short for a St. Basil liturgy.

Ung

Do you mean lay people were serving communion?

How can the use of an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist be justified in an Eastern Catholic context? There is no such thing in the Orthodox and Byzantine tradition. In the Orthodox Church no layman even touches the Holy Table or the Chalice and Diskos. In the Russian Church, even a Deacon does not distribute Holy Communion, unless it is in the most extraordinary of circumstances. Certainly not simply to make Communion go faster! I am truly flabbergasted.

Fr David Straut

Father David,

The news of having an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist is flabbergasting. However, taken in the context that 90%+ of Greek Cathlolic churches don't celebrate Vespers and/or Matins, 99%+ of Greek Catholic churches don't celebrate The Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete, etc. it shouldn't be all that surprising that it could happen. Once the slippery slope has been entered upon, this is the kind of stuff that happens.

Monomakh

Unfortunately, the footwork for having Lay Eucharistic Ministers in Catholic Eastern Churches was laid with the promulgation, by Pope John Paul II, of the Code of Canons for Eastern Churches (CCEO) in 1990. Here is the appropriate canon:

Canon 709 - �1. The priest distributes the Divine Eucharist or if the particular law of his own Church sui iuris establishes it, also the deacon.
�2. The synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church or the council of hierarchs is free to establish appropriate norms, according to which other Christian faithful can distribute the Divine Eucharist.


Deacon Robert

If not encouragement, isn't that open license to violate Eastern tradition? Why would the western church be able to establish liturgical norms for an Eastern one?

Anyone have any photos or studies to back them upin assertions like:

"90%+ of Greek Cathlolic churches don't celebrate Vespers and/or Matins, 99%+ of Greek Catholic churches don't celebrate The Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete"

Anyone?

Why is it always open season on the BCC when it comes to sensationalizing or rumor mongering?

Actually, I am told that the text of canons were prepared by canonists of Catholic Eastern Churches, and then forwarded to the Pope for his blessing and promulgation. In other words, they were essentially the work of "easterners".

Dn. Robert

Fr. Deacon, wasn't the mandate to return to Eastern traditions though? Why would the canonists propose that and why would it be approved?

First of all, the BCC is not the only Greek Catholic jurisdiction here in the USA.

Secondly, the 90% number is not a stretch at all for Vespers and Matins, it is right around reality. I travel for work extensively throughout the US and Canada. Many weekends I am out of town, I have searched high and low to find Greek Catholic parishes that provide complete Vespers on Saturday evenings. Your profile says your in Ohio, we could together go over the churches here in Ohio where we both live and find that they are not specious. I'll begin to look up others churches across the country that have websites and see what their schedules. If others could help that would be great. I'd like to have a list of parishes that offer the full liturgical celebrations so that when I travel I'll know where to go. (I started a list at the end of this post). Let's go through this and we'll see who the sensationalists are.

With regards to the Great Canon of St. Andrew. I challenge you to find more than 3, and I defy you to name more than 8 Greek Catholic churches in the US that celebrated the Great Canon of St. Andrew during the first week of the Great Fast this year, the year before that, etc. Instead of getting upset with the messenger, perhaps those who cut corners at every chance they get should be questioned by you as well.

Here is the list I started for Vespers (this is the best of my knowledge)
St. Josaphat (Ukrainian) Parma OH no Vespers
St. Andrew (Ukrainian) Parma OH no Vespers
St. John (Ruthenian Cathedral) Parma OH no Vespers
St. Gregory (Ruthenian) Lakewood OH no Vespers
Holy Ghost (Ruthenian) Cleveland, OH I heard that Vespers was discontinued, someone please confirm
St. Mary (Ruthenian) Cleveland, OH no Vespers
St. Joseph (Ruthenian) Brecksville, OH no Vespers
Holy Spirit (Ruthenian) Parma OH no Vespers
St. John (Ruthenian) Columbus OH I heard they have Vespers
St. Anne (Ukrainian) Youngstown OH no Vespers
Holy Ghost (Ukrainian) Akron OH no Vespers
St. Stephen (Ruthenian) Euclid OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian) Akron OH no Vespers
St. Nicholas (Ruthenian)Ashtabula OH no Vespers
St. Nicholas (Ruthenian)Barberton OH no Vespers
St. Eugene (Ruthenian)Bedford OH no Vespers
Infant Jesus of Prague Boardman OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian)Campbell OH no Vespers
St. Nicholas (Ruthenian) Cleveland OH no Vespers
St. Barbara (Ruthenian) Dayton OH no Vespers
St. Mary Magdalene (Ruthenian) Fairview Pk, OH no Vespers
St. Mary (Ruthenian) Marblehead, OH no Vespers
St. Andrew (Ruthenian) Mentor, OH I heard that they do, please confirm
St. John the Baptist (Ruthenian) Mingo Junction, OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian) Newton Falls, OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian) Oregon, OH no Vespers
St. Michael (Ruthenian) Pleasant City,OH unknown
St. John (Ruthenian) Solon, OH no Vespers
St. Joseph (Ruthenian) Toledo, OH unknown
Ss. Peter and Paul (Ruthenian) Warren, OH unknown
St. George (Ruthenian) Youngstown, OH
St. Emilian (Ruthenian) Brunswick, OH I heard it was discontinued need confirmation
Pokrova (Ukrainian) no Vespers
St. Nicholas (Ruthenian) Lorain, OH They have Vespers
St. Elias (Melkite) Brooklyn, OH no Vespers
St. Joseph (Melkite) Akron, OH no Vespers

And with regards to the Cathedral in Munhall, PA that this thread is about, the last time I checked, the parish had the time to celebrate Saturday evening liturgy but not to celebrate Vespers even though the cantor was very qualified and knew the music for vespers.



I have to find out about others still. Also, this probably should be it's own thread.........


Monomakh

I am sorry I said anything - a lot of time and effort just went into that.

I concede we are deeply flawed and less authentic. I have been won over.

"St. Joseph (Ruthenian) Toledo, OH unknown"

Where is that parish supposed to be?

OCA parishes:

All.

I'd have to muster up a list of those that don't have Vespers, but I don't know of any. How sad that the Greek Catholic churches refuse to follow their tradition.

Don't be too sad for us. Much as it would be great to have vespers at every parish, for a lot of parishes with far-flung parishoners getting to the parish on a Saturday night would constitute a difficulty. At the parish where I have attended them, as often as not it has been two or three of us and the priest.

How has this become a hallmark of authenticity in the way it has on here? Laudible as it may be for all of us to resume it, if it is impracticle on a number of levels, why is this continually brought against us as "Exhibit F" in the ongoing trial to somehow demonstrate we are ersatz easterners?

I love the BCC and lately I feel on here that some are taking every opportunity to insult the Byzantine Catholics.