www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Munhall Cathedral Rumor...

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Dear SS,

Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Mt 5:11-12
I took the above from the Orthodox Study Bible so that the translation would not be criticized.

Apparently there is more importance attached to vespers than Divine Liturgy, for the two parishes the local Orthodox priest serves only has Divine Liturgy every other Sunday (at each parish). Our priests who serve three parishes find the time to have at least one Divine Liturgy each weekend.

I am saddened that Father Simeon is so severely criticized on this site. He is a good humble priest who attaches great importance to his Eastern faith.

I have come to believe that a few who post here have absolutely no interest in reuniting the Eastern or Western Churches, or even Eastern and Eastern Churches, and attempt to build a case why any union is unthinkable. I hope that I am wrong but that is my perception.

Fr. Deacon Paul

Deacon Paul,

It is not a question of valuing Vespers over Divine Liturgy. One of the authentic disciplines of the Byzantine East is that no priest may serve more than one Divine Liturgy on any one day (and no more than one Liturgy may be served on any one Holy Table). This is a discipline that has been kept in Eastern Orthodoxy, and one that we should be restoring. That restriction of one Liturgy per priest per day had also been the Western discipline, but it has gone away gradually via relaxation. Interesting, about a year ago, the RC Bishop of Scranton-Joseph Martino, in addressing the issue of clergy shortage in his Diocese, made reference to that ancient discipline, and the need to find a way to restore it in the West.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

Father bless.

The training and use of Extraordinary ministers was established by particular law in 1999 by Metropolitan Archbishop Judson.

Are you certain that there are NO Orthodox juridictions who have made any arrangements via particular law or pastoral discretion to authorize a non-cleric to give the Eucharist?

Fr. Deacon Paul

Eucharistic Ministers were present in many Archeparchial parishes since 1991 when Archbishop Dolinay was installed. I remember one parish using four Eucharistic Ministers at one Divine Liturgy!

Ung

Fr. Deacon Paul,

Simple Sinner,


Believe --- there is one Christ.

He built one Church.

He does not expect us all to be the same, for He created us with different gifts.

He will judge --- on our belief, on what we say, and do, that reflects that belief (or not).

He will judge those who speak the Creed and don't really believe it, nor practice it in their lives.

He will judge those who state false belief, or who attack others falsely or unjustly.


Rejoice and be glad --- this is the day the Lord has made!

Rejoice and be glad --- this is the Church the Lord has made!


S'nami Boh!

Deacon Paul,
(1.) The particular law was drawn up pursuant to the CCEO of 1990.

(2.) Where I live, we are surrounded by parishes of various Orthodox jurisdictions. Not one of those jurisdictions allows for lay people distributing the Holy Eucharist. This is an invention of the Post-Vatican II Latin Church. Prior to Vatican II, this was never done liturgically in the West, either. In my town, there is a fairly substantial OCA parish (mostly people of Rusyn & Lemko ancestry). Their deacon tells me that he distributes the Holy Eucharist, with the special blessing of the Bishop, only when the size of the crowd necessitates it (i.e. Christmas, Pascha, etc.)

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Fr.Deacon Robert,

It seems that if Divine Liturgy can't be serve on a Sunday, then the parish family which has had to fast from the Eucharist should have an opportunity during the week, or on a Saturday morning. Could this be be one of the reasons that most Eastern churches are losing people to the omnipresent Roman Catholic Churches with at least three vigil/Sunday masses in a town of any size?
Christ said "I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now continued with Me three days and have nothing to eat. And I do not want to send them away hungry"..MT 15:32-33 Our people should be given spiritual bread (Eucharist) and not turned away.

Also, Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him, how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, or for those who were with him, but only for the priests? Mt 12:4

Our priests are few and precious and they feed the flock as much as they can. Is this wrong?

Fr Deacon Paul

Fr. Dn.,

I thought that this was the case in most Orthodox jurisdictions. Only in special circumstances are Deacons allowed to distribute the Eucharist.

Ung

Deacon Paul,

There is no prohibition in the Byzantine East, even in Eastern Orthodoxy, of daily Divine Liturgy. Locally, here, St. Tikhon's OCA monastery celebrates Divine Liturgy every morning at 7AM. St. Michael's Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Scranton has a daily Divine Liturgy. I have seen this done at Greek Orthodox parishes. I was just making the point that your local Orthodox parish was observing its discipline, and that it was not valuing Vespers over Divine Liturgy.
I think I should also make the point that Eucharistic discipline has become way too lax in Catholicism since Vatican II. There is virtually NO fast (what is one hour?). Very few go to confession, yet everybody lines up for Holy Communion? I like the genuine Eastern tradition of attending Vespers & Confession (some Orthodox priests and jurisdictions go to extremes in rquiring confession before every reception) the night before receiving the Holy Eucharist, along with the recitation of the preparatory prayers. Reception of the Holy Eucharist then becomes something very special. In some churches (especially Latin ones), many don't even know what they are lining up for. You'd think the priest was handing out bon-bons.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert

You are correct. Distribution of the Holy Eucharist is a priestly function. A deacon distributing is considered to be "extraordinary". Years back, I was told that it was also considered "extraordinary" for us. The use of lay people, from what I can tell, is a post-Vatican II Latinization.

Dn. Robert

Some comments:

Ung-Certez,

Thanks for posting your account. That rumor has been making it�s way around for a few weeks now. Accurate information is always appropriate.


Father David Straut,

Your observations are quite correct. An �Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist� should be used only in extraordinary conditions. Unfortunately we have lost much of our Ortho-Praxis and Ortho-Ethos. No one would probably object to a deacon distributing the Eucharist in a case where the priest cannot (i.e., broken arm). But for it to occur on a regular basis is not appropriate. When the bishops promulgated the Particular Law they should have set a standard appropriate to the Byzantine Tradition, and not attempted to accommodate anything else.


Monomakh,

A priest friend called me tonight and recounted the parishes that celebrate proper Vespers. Your statistics are pretty correct. If one included the parishes that did the Vespers/Divine Liturgy combination the parishes that celebrated Vespers would rise to no more than 3% according to our accounting. [And the Vesper/Divine Liturgy combination is not correct for ordinary Saturday evenings in parishes. It is modeled after the idea currently popular among some in the Latin Church that a service without Eucharist is not worth having.]


AMM,

Rome issued a Liturgical Instruction that did direct the Eastern Catholic Churches to recover what they lost and to match organic development to their respective Orthodox Church. Unfortunately the Council of Hierarchs clearly rejected the Liturgical Instruction in promulgating the Revised Divine Liturgy.

Vespers and Matins are not impractical. In fact, they are necessary. Unless our future is centered on liturgical prayer we will not survive. Liturgical prayer, correctly done, grows parishes. I agree that attendance would be low at first, and probably never rise above 40-50% of the parish. Still, that prayer is necessary. The music need not be complicated or even Ruthenian (though most of the �regular� music is pretty simple). Even the lack of a priest should not stop the praying of these services as they can be prayed as simple Reader�s Services.

I can understand that to some it might seem like many on the Forum are focused on the negative. That is because the way forward is clear and our bishops are not leading us. Rome gave us directives to restore what is ours and be authentic to ourselves. We have excellent Ruthenian recension books. And still our bishops imitate the Roman Catholics when almost anyone should be able to see that it will not work. Our bishops have done what is wrong. We have not just the right but the responsibility to appeal to their superiors in Rome to do what is correct. And the bishops can very easily do what is correct and repeal the Revised Divine Liturgy and promulgate the official Ruthenian Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

I will state again, the way forward is to make normative our own Ruthenian liturgical books (and not ban them!). Prepare texts that are accurate and free from political agendas, that respect what is memorized by the people. Also prepare music that respects what is memorized and present it in a way that allows for growth for �what works� from other music traditions. Make the cathedrals examples of fantastic Liturgy, and through education, example and encouragement raise up the whole Church. It can be done. And if it is not done, if we continue on the Revisionist path, the Ruthenian Church will not survive. Already I find myself planting roots in the Melkite Church, whose Liturgy is far closer to the official Ruthenian Recension Divine Liturgy than is the Pittsburgh Revised Divine Liturgy. I am surely unimportant and have contributed little. Yet I am one more example of people being driven away by bad Liturgy.

Father Deacon Paul,

Who exactly is persecuted falsely? It seems that those who oppose the Revised Divine Liturgy are the ones arguing with the texts and theology given by Rome and those that support the Revision are rejecting the directives from Rome. I would really appreciate it if you can be specific in who you believe to be making false accusations (and substantiate it) or withdraw your charge.

No. It is necessary to see our liturgical tradition as whole. Vespers, Matins, the Hours are all preparation for the Divine Liturgy. In a way, omitting Vespers and Matins is not a lot different than skipping antiphons and litanies and other parts of the Divine Liturgy. Do you remember the �Low Mass� where the people skipped right to the first verse of the antiphon, did the �Only-Begotten Son� and then the priest intoned for �Holy God�. Same principle.

Has Father Simeon been severely criticized? I don�t see it anywhere and think your accusation is a false one. I would imagine that he is like every other priest who obeys the directive of his archbishop, more so since he is the rector of the cathedral (and the disagreement here is not with him but what the Metropolitan has mandated). I do not know him well but I daresay he would be very open to a full slate of services celebrated correctly (that is, in accordance with the official Ruthenian liturgical books and not the Pittsburgh Revised books).

There are so many more points here that could be made�.

The bishops have it within their power to easily undo this fiasco and to rescind the Revised Divine Liturgy. Let us pray that they will do so, and promulgate the official Ruthenian Recension as normative for the Church.

John

My Dear Fr Deacon,

Well, it is dangerous to make absolute statements, I know, but I have never even heard of such a thing in any Orthodox Jurisdiction anywhere. The mentality of Orthodox people is such that much smaller departures from tradition can cause grave problems in parishes. I would fully expect most parishioners would abandon a parish as simply "not Orthodox" were they to see a laymen (let alone a laywoman!) pick up a Chalice and attempt to distribute Holy Communion. I'm not trying to be dramatic. I believe this to be absolutely true.

Fr David Straut

John,


I agree with you that the Vespers and Matins are necessary. I disagree with your estimation that it would rise to 40-50%. SS. Peter and Paul in Ben Lomond, in their brief shining moment before the break-up, had 1500 parishioners and they only got 200 at Vespers. Now that is an outstanding number, but only 13% of the parish. Most Orthodox parishes in my experience don't fare that well. I also agree that without a healthy liturical life we will not survive. I disagree celebrating Vespers, Matins, or an unabbreviated Liturgy is necessarily the key. If it were why the same precipitous decline in numbers among the Orthodox who celebrate Vespers/Matins and unabbreviated Liturgy as with Eastern Catholcis who generally only celebrate Liturgy and that abbreviated? The problem of Eastern Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, are far more complex and multi-layered, than lack of Vespers or Litanies in the Liturgy.

Fr. Deacon Lance

John,



Was I not replying to Simple Sinner, empathizing with him? His is one of many similar comments. Couldn't you sense his despair with the tone of this topic? He and many others are tired of our Church getting beat up. You can't blame it all on the RDL, for there was a similar attitude even before the change. Are not all the faithful important that I can try to relieve Simple Sinners discomfort with Christ's words?

So, the rector of the Cathedral has not been criticized? I don't read nearly every post but I recall at least four different strings where this has been brought up, and not in the most charitable way. Is it constructive to keep repeating or is there an unspoken contempt (perhaps it is not, but it doesn't come across as constructive to me)? I do not think that repeating this on the forum is going to change anything. It would be more constructive for those who feel so strongly to offer to Father to help sing the vespers on a prearranged Saturday night.

Tired and ready for bed.
Fr Deacon Paul

Dear Etnick,

I do not wish to be provocative at all, still less to engage in ecclesiastical one-upsmanship, but we need to always to remember the parable of the Publican and the Pharisee. As soon as we compare ourselves to others, we stray far from communion with our Lord.

The full cycle of services for a Sunday or a Great Feastday is: Ninth Hour with Small Vespers, Small Compline and Great Vespers, Midnight Office, Matins and First Hour, and finally Third Hour and Sixth Hour before the Divine Liturgy.

I have had the privilege of serving two parishes in my priestly ministry: the first in the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese and my current parish in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

In the Antiochian parish, we had the great blessing of being able to serve an aggregate of services on Saturdays & Eves of Feasts consisting of Ninth Hour, Great Vespers, and Small Compline with the pre-communion canon, while on Sunday and Feastday mornings we were able to serve the aggregate of Midnight Office and Matins before the Divine Liturgy. As you see from the above list, we neglected to serve Small Vespers and seldom served the services of the Hours.

In my current parish I am truly blessed to have people used to and able to do the typical Russian pattern of services: Vigil (Great Vespers, Matins, First Hour) on Saturday evenings and the Eves of Feasts, and Third Hour and Sixth Hour before the Divine Liturgy on Sunday and Feastday mornings. What's missing? Small Vespers again, as well as Small Compline and Midnight Office.

I do not know of an Orthodox parish that celebrates the full cycle of services. As wonderful as that might be, it is probably beyond the strength of nearly all Orthodox people living outside of monasteries today.

I have a dear priest friend who is the rector of an OCA parish. He was able after about 25 years of hard work in his parish to finally introduce Matins and First Hour after Saturday evening Vespers each week. (The parish already had been doing the Vigil Service on many of the Great Feasts since he got there.) What a blessed achievement. Since your parish already does Vigil, you know how wonderful that is! But in at least some OCA parishes, no one has had the opportunity to attend Sunday or Festal Matins for their whole lives.

The point is: we need to encourage others to deepen in their commitment to our Orthodox liturgical tradition. As a pastor, I also believe that people grow gradually. If we demand that change be instantaneous and dramatic, we run the risk of losing many people on the one hand and fostering only short-lived change on the other.

Fr David Straut