www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Munhall Cathedral Rumor...

Dear AsianPilgrim,

I hesitate to answer these posts of yours because it doesn't seem right to speak about my own spiritual life. But, lest you continue to think that Orthodox Christians just pray on the weekends, I guess I'll say something.

Many priests try to incorporate the daily services into the liturgical life of their parishes and their own private lives. I know of several Orthodox parishes that have daily services every day: Vespers or Matins, sometimes both.

I myself am a priest who works outside his parish and lives a half hour drive away from his church. My parish therefore has a pretty full cycle of services on the Eve and morning of the Lord's Day, Great Feasts, and some minor Feasts. I also serve mornings and evenings each day of Holy Week, from the Friday before Palm Sunday through the beginning of Bright Week. Of course I must take unpaid vacation from work to do this, but it is a great blessing to serve every day and receive Holy Communion. On days I do not serve in Church, I try to sing Ninth Hour, Vespers, Small Compline and the Midnight Office at home by myself in the icon corner. I do the services simply, as reader's services, but I chant all the parts that are appointed to be chanted and I have an abbreviated system for reading the Kathismata of the Psalter. I really enjoy doing these services. I wish I could do more.

For the record, I admire the fact that Roman Catholics and Greek Catholics serve the Liturgy every day. I really wish that I could too.

I just wish that you could find it in your heart to stop denigrating Orthodox Christians and minimizing the great efforts that they make to be faithful to the Eastern liturgical tradition. One small example: I spend more time standing before the altar of God on Saturday evening and Sunday morning than a typical Roman Rite priest would do were he to serve a 30 minute daily Mass six days a week, an hour long Mass on Saturday evening, and an hour long Mass on Sunday morning. Doesn't that count for anything in your book?

Fr David Straut

1. Many health experts say several smaller meals are better than one big meal physically. Wouldn't the same apply to spiritual food?
2. If one is studying for a test, more is learned from regular study over a period of days than 'cramming' it all in one long session. Wouldn't the same be applied to spiritual sanctification and knowledge obtained a the Liturgy?
3. Saint John Chrysostom declared, �the work of a priest is done on earth, but is ranked among heavenly ordinances...While still remaining in the flesh, the priest re-presents the ministry of the angels in heaven (III,4).� The angels worship God continually...shouldn't be do it more than once a week?

The Internet has shown us a lesson on attendance: many companies and parishes spent a lot of time and money on a web site only to discover that very few 'came'. So, they stop updating. Then, when people come to 'visit online' they see the latest from '2005' and do not return....how many times does this happen? In short, if the site is updated those that come to visit online will grow, though sometimes slowly. The same would apply to a daily liturgy (that can also be done in the evenings).

So what Ung-Certez is describing is actually a good thing???? I'm getting lost.

I believe there were more than two or three, but I was one of those who certainly lost their peace when the reformed Liturgy was forced onto the Church. I had to leave(to be fair there were doctrinal reasons also).

But I was bitter and I could not attend services in that state of mind. So you were correct. I have found great peace in the Holy Orthodox Church.

A good thing that the still use the RDL books? That most of the singing is done by the cantor? That they use an EEM?

Ung

You are called by the Spirit to use the Holy Scriptures to make false accusations? Wow!

As we are at an impasse I can only recommend that you speak with your pastor about this specific issue and ask him to teach you what it means to accuse falsely, and why you should not do it.

As to your stating that your original context was not as cold-hearted as you state, it is curious that your sympathy is only for those who support the reform who appear tired from hearing from those who support the Ruthenian tradition. We have a whole Church � mostly of older people � who (without good reason) have had the way the very words and music they have used for 40 years taken from them, and told it was wrong (that is the message that comes with the prohibition). Listen to them and you will understand that the very foundation of they way they communicate with the Lord has been destroyed. They have been hurt incredibly by their bishops. It was not intentional but it is real. It is really embarrassing that so few in the Church care about them, let alone speak up for them.

It depends. The two don�t make for even comparisons. Spending 2 hours the eves of Sundays and Feasts praying the Vigil (Vespers and Matins) and another 90 minutes on Sunday morning at Divine Liturgy does not mean one is not also praying during the week (i.e., smaller spiritual meals each day). Plus there is a difference between personal prayer at home and corporate prayer with the gathered Church.

Not necessarily. One can look at the weekdays as being spent in spiritual preparation to receive the Eucharist at the Sunday Divine Liturgy. While daily Eucharist is certainly part of the received tradition one must be very careful not to adopt the �more is better� idea. Remember the misguided folks who used to run from Mass to Mass to receive the Eucharist several times a day thinking it made them holier.

I agree that there is nothing worse than visiting a website and seeing �Coming events for 2005�. But I would not make a comparison between websites and Eucharist. I would also note that we must be careful not to consider prayer worthless unless one receives the Eucharist. And that the custom of evening Divine Liturgies has come at the cost of the almost total loss of real fasting in the Church.

No John--they used to run from altar to altar or mass to mass to SEE the Host, not partake of it, even to the point of yelling out to the priest: "Hold up! Hold up higher Sir!"

So were there more than 75 people at the DL in Munhall when you went? Isn't that what the Ruthenian particular law states is the number when you can have a Eucharistic Minister?

There is a remarkable essay by the ROCOR priest, Fr. John Townsend, in which he outlines a liturgical ideal for Orthodox parish life in the USA

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/devotion/on_worship.htm

I found it both challenging and rigorous -- too rigorous, perhaps -- and I think that everybody on this list, EC or RC, EO or OO, would benefit by reading it.

It's not my judgment to make, because it's not my church and I'm not familiar with these things. There does seem to be an opinion expressed that more frequent short liturgies are better.

We don't have daily services. Many people travel a fair amount of distance to make it to church, which is not atypical of Orthodox parishes. Daily services would in all likelihood either be lightly or non attended. Each individual is really responsible for maintaining a prayer routine outside of church. I know our priest also visits the sick and elderly during the week to take them the Eucharist. They are people who can't even make it on Sunday or to church at all.

Were we to move to more frequent services, I would like to see something along the lines of vespers or hours. Things to prepare you for Sunday when the Lord's resurrection is celebrated in the Eucharist. I would honestly find it hard to mentally prepare for receiving on a much more frequent basis. There's also the difficulty of the total fast from the night before. I honestly don't know how people or priests manage to do that on a daily basis. Confession would also be an issue, as I would find it difficult to confess on the frequency needed to receive daily.

Father, bless!

Nowhere did I ever say that the Orthodox do not pray except on Sundays. And even if too many Orthodox did so (and I don't know enough to generalize about that), there are too many Roman Catholics who pray only on Sundays (if they pray at all) for me to cast a stone against the Orthodox in this regard. I am sure that the Orthodox have more than a thing or two to teach Catholics (Roman or Eastern) when it comes to private prayers. (Jesus Prayer, anyone?) The points in the posts I've made so far are about LITURGICAL prayer in churches and/or chapels.

Nowhere too have I said that the Orthodox are "too lazy." You are from ROCOR and I've held up ROCOR's liturgical praxis (for Sundays and feasts) more than once as a model for Byzantine Christians to follow. And you have written more than once about the long periods that you spend "in the fire" on Saturdays and Sundays, and I have great admiration for what you do. (I remember that someone on this forum once commented that you spend more time doing the Proskomedia than many EC priests spend celebrating the Sunday Divine Liturgy!). What you do certainly counts for A LOT in God's book, which is the only book that we should care about. My book is that of a mere sinner.

And, if you'll carefully read my posts (although I concede that we can't all be expected to carefully read posts all the time), I have neither called for the institution of daily Divine Liturgy (except during Lent, of course) without Matins or Vigil in Orthodox parish churches, nor have I advocated that the Orthodox adopt the laxity and the bare efficiency of Latin liturgical praxis. Yes, I'm Roman Catholic, I attend the Novus Ordo on weekdays, I use the Paul VI breviary, but that's only because there is nothing else on the menu available to me. I certainly wish that there was more. I also hope that the Orthodox will NEVER imitate the Catholic liturgical reform. I did mention the project of a "Parish Typikon" as called for by the Russian Council of 1917-1918 but I don't think that such a Typikon, if ever devised (and that seems highly unlikely) should be as relaxed as current Catholic (Roman or Eastern) praxis.

The only thing I'd like to see is that the Orthodox be true to their own ideals. If that is not possible, well... who am I to judge?

My actual points are much simpler:

1) If Greek Catholic liturgical praxis has its shortcomings (DL without the requisite Hours, lack of Vespers and Matins, abbreviations, Latinizations, etc. etc.) so does Orthodox liturgical praxis, at least in the New World. The Orthodox Church itself holds up daily Matins and Vespers (and, when possible, daily Divine Liturgy) as the ideal, and it is no secret that most Orthodox parishes fall short of this ideal.

Ergo;

2) There is no point in constantly bashing Greek Catholic liturgical praxis as something utterly inferior to Orthodox praxis in every way -- which seems to be the trend in ByzCath. If the Greek Catholics have faulty services, they make up for it by worshiping daily. If the Orthodox have nice weekend services, well... they have empty churches on weekdays. Just about balances things.

In these points, there is no hint of personal condemnation against the character or the person of any Orthodox, whether priest or laity. Surely, Orthodox priests who have to work to support their beloved families cannot be expected to celebrate the liturgy in their parishes every day, and neither can busy laypeople be condemned for not making it to daily Matins or Vespers. I perfectly understand that; after all, I'm also a corporate rat. I know how tiring it can be to pray even if only a little after a whole day of meetings and functions and deadlines. Sometimes, I'm reduced to reading Lauds or Vespers or reciting the Rosary while in a taxicab, rushing to yet another appointment.


I'd like to end with a relatively off-topic thought. Why is it that Orthodox priests have to support themselves and look for a living? By the hands of a priest, grace is imparted and the heavens are brought down to the Earth; by his hands, we receive counsel and comfort as from the Lord Himself. Surely it isn't unreasonable to expect communities to support their priests? (No, I am NOT bashing the Orthodox. I just find the notion that priests have to work for a living to be unthinkable. At the very least, a community ought to help their priest find work that will be lucrative enough to send the children through school and still be flexible enough to allow him to focus on his priestly work.)

AFAIK, the people on this board who bash the liturgical practices of the Byzantine Catholics are themselves Byzantine Catholics. I think you're argument is really with them.


My parish supports our priest, although in my opinion not well enough. He does not have to work. My previous parish was a mission, but the congregation still fully supported the priest and his family. He did not work. The other handful of parishes I've been to all supported their priest and he was dedicated to being the pastor of the parish. I know of a few instances where the priest's wife would work to supplement their income.

Some parishes are too small and poor to support a priest and his family, and there is just nothing they can do. Some parishes probably could give more, but don't for various reasons (i.e. the dues mentality).

Having to work is far from ideal, but I would not say unthinkable. Unfortunately sometimes it is unavoidable.

What I and others here are stating is that we want the Byzantine Liturgy, celebrated correctly and with texts and music that are both correct and respect what we have memorized after praying them for 40 years. We hold up as examples equally both our Ruthenian recension liturgical books and the praxis of our own parishes that had full and vibrant liturgical lives and parishes from both the Orthodox and other Greek Catholic Churches (which shows that the Byzantine Liturgy works!). Many of us have spent much of our adult lives working towards this. We now find that we are denied a correct celebration of the Divine Liturgy. So, so many of us have been spiritually hurt for no reason whatsoever. One expects to suffer greatly for Christ. One does not expect one's Church to be the author of this great suffering.

Please consider the discussions here in light of the following:

The way forward is for the bishops to rescind the Revised Divine Liturgy and to promulgate the Ruthenian Divine Liturgy, with texts and music that respect what has been memorized over lifetimes of praying it. Establish a �minimum� (i.e., the shortest form allowed) and slowly raise the parish celebration over a decade by education, example, and encouragement. I continue to fail to understand the opposition by some (especially our bishops) to our own Liturgy.

Well, does Father do at least some services during the week? Just asking. If there's none, I won't go on attack dog mode.