www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Vocation Crisis

God grant Bishops Fabian and Charles many years.

There is No, let me repeat, NO vocations crisis! There are many, many, many married men that would love to devote their life to the priesthood. God has called many married men but if the human Bishops do not accept God's wisdom then too bad for them. Jesus called a few married men to be Apostles. Peter, wasn't he married? Well what human, no matter who they are, is able to contradict a practice initiated by our Lord Jesus? I personally know of 4 men that would jump at the chance to go to seminary, but they are married. Excuse me for being so blunt but I think that a married 40 year old man with a few kids can bring a heck of alot more to the Church than a 22 year old celibate that never even experienced life can bring. O.K., to be fair Jesus did choose John and he was probably a young celibate. My point is that it takes the Church to wise up and follow Jesus. Was Jesus wrong to choose Peter, a married man? If so, darn, where would the Papacy be?

Yes, there is a vocation crisis.
The US school system with its postmodernism and humanistic secularism is destroying religious faith and values.

And then there is this --
Apostolic celibacy?
From Where did that idea originate?

I was taught in Catholic Schools that all the apostles were celibate, and that the idea of a celibate priesthood originated from them. I guess the nuns did not see the scripture that mentions St. Peter's mother-in-law.

I think especially for seminary life that it needs to be more easily accessible, especially financially

Well, looks like the nuns from your school only saw what they wanted to. Apostolic Celibacy, yeah right?!? How can they possibly know that the Apostles were celibate? If they were, then I guess that alot of the Popes of the first 1000 years of the Catholic Church were wrong to have wives and children. It is much easier and realistic to infer from scripture the Apostles were in fact not celibate. It seems celibacy really took hold when Neo-platonic and Platonic values entered the theology of the Church. Before this time, among Jews, procreating was a beautiful thing that people were made by God to do. Paul and the Gentile Christians had a somewhat different outlook. Celibacy was very popular in the Gentile world at this time such as the Cult of Isis and other pagan systems. The fact is Peter had a mother-in-law and he was called to be an Apostle. If the Holy Spirit didn't want us to have married priests then this a detail that by accident was left in the Gospels. And even though Paul feels celibacy is better, I still defer to Jesus's decision to choose Peter. And not only did He choose a married man.... He built His whole Church upon him!!!

If memory serves--and lately it has been a rather bad servant --this topic came up at a Synod of Bishops in Rome. The question was raised about admitting married men who were of mature age and who might already have their children raised: the second career man. Unfortunately it was voted down.

The reason still escapes me.

BOB

A vocation crisis is never the work of the Holy Spirit or the vocations who respond to the calling. Any vocations crisis is predominantly a problem in church leadership and silly rules.

The Lincoln diocese, I believe, has ONLY celibate men for the priesthood. So, it isn't mandatory celibacy. It all focuses on WHO you will be dedicating your life to in addition to God. The Church is also made up of men who are authorities over other men.

There is nothing so dysfunctional as when a church seminary or theology school can't make up its mind whether to ordain married men without having to get permission on a case-by-case basis. When a church is so poor as not able to support married clergy, one wonders if poverty is really the calling for a married man who would like to raise children without going on the dole.

Clergy in the Episcopalian Rochester Diocese get paid anywhere from $40K to $75K depending on the size of their parish. My one Catholic friend's cousing gets paid only a meager $12K/year no matter if he is shepherding a parish of 400 souls or 40 souls. My classmate will finish theology school in another church and has accepted his first parish assignment starting out at $50K salary, including a house for his family.

Then there are the lawsuits that scare chief shepherds who fear divorces, healthcare of clergy family, financial care of clergy family after a clergyman dies, lawsuits regarding sexual scandals (especially when money has run out after paying for all the celibate clergy and their scandals).

Then the church members are not very charitable.

These facts make implementing a vocation difficult from the receiving end.

on optional married diocesan(secular)priesthood. this is a tough call, and this is very complicated, but i think somethings need to be understood. being called to be a celibate priest is not something that is imposed on the candidates for priesthood, but rather is a vocation. the Latin church teaches celibacy is a gift and calls men with that gift, as Jesus was. being called to priesthood AND marriage can be possible as well. both are seperate vocations. as far as advantages and disadvantages, there can be advantages and disadvantages to both a celibate priest and a married priest.

Please don't be sarcastic about it or assume that the nuns were too dumb to see what was otherwise so obvious. Maybe it wasn't so obvious as you happen to think.

Maybe the nuns had the pious understanding that Saint Peter was a widower who took care of his mother-in-law - no mention of a living wife seems to otherwise be made or implied.

There is a great deal of work in defense of Roman ideals of Apostolic celibacy - vestigal traces of it are still found in the east in the Episcopate. I really am not interested in re-hashing the debate - I am sure archived threads exist to deal with all that.

I will only point out that it has served Rome rather well more often then not, and there were (and still are!) vocations to be had for the asking without banning celibacy. On the flip side, some denominations and jurisdictions are knee-deep in married ministers (Episcopalians have far more ministers than they have EVER had) and are losing members left and right.

The real vocations crisis is in married and family life. Healthy Catholic families are the seedbed of vocations to priestly and religious life.


I am hoping this isn't a crack. For the life of me, I can't understand who this is meant to be about. The BCC has married priests and married candidates.


I don't know what the situation is like in Rochester - if their parishes are bucking the national trends, or just have exceptional trustfunds... TEC membership has dropped well below 2M while their clergy population is at an all time high of almost 18,000... With more on the way. Many rostered ordinands do NOT get parochial assignments (some don't ask for them).


Again, that is not a cheap shot is it?

When I was 12 years old, I realized that there is no vocations crisis; there is an overabundance of false Catholics. Just consider contraception alone. Studies tell us that roughly 90% or more of US Catholics use artificial contraception--yet they come to Mass and receive communion. If those people were *not* coming to Mass, there'd be enough priests to minister to people's needs. OTOH, if they were not contracepting, they'd be having lots of kids who might come to the priesthood.

Archbishop Curtiss of Omaha has said that the vocations crisis is engineered by bishops and religious superiors who assign priests to jobs in universities and bureaucratic positions that laity could legitimately hold, just so they can put women in charge of parishes.

If celibacy were the "cause" of the "vocations crisis," then why, in the Latin Rite, are there not more permanent deacons?

The vocations crisis is itself indicative of the more fundamental lack of morals and commitment in contemporary Western culture. Look at the divorce rates. A person who can't keep a promise can't keep a promise.

I don't remember hearing anything about this in my Parish. When excatly was it?

Just breaking in here, please forgive, but I thought you might find this interesting.

It made the front page yesterday of the regional newspaper that a man joined a monastery.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080310/NEWS10/803100337

This is both good news . . . and it indicates the depth of the vocation crisis.

-- John

On Sunday, as I was driving by the local Latin parish (that of my maternal grandparents and still of most of my family on that side), I was struck by something. A couple of decades ago, I'd have never chosen/dared to drive by there (or most any other Latin parish in this small city or its surrounding towns) of a Sunday morning, unless I was heading to Mass there.

Why? Because the traffic gridlock between Masses rivaled that of Boston at rush-hour.

Many smaller Northeastern cities and the towns had a reserve police force, which swung into action on Sunday mornings and tried valiently to control the traffic flow around Catholic churches. In some places, like here, it was almost their sole function.

Yesterday, I saw my neighbor's son visiting - Ken is the city police superintendent. Stopping to say hello, I inquired about the status of the reserves. He thought long and hard before saying "Neil, I can't remember how long it's been since we stopped needing their services and just disbanded the body eventually, but I think I had just made sergeant and, as you know, that was a lot of years ago."

Many years,

Neil

I don't remember it being read here, but he did talk about it when he was here for the sweep through Texas a few months ago. If my humble opinion can be included, we need to strengthen the diaconate program and emphasize their place in mission work and evangelism in general.

Slava Isusu Christu!

To be honest, it is difficult for any Eastern Church to survive the stormy waters of religious pluralism and spiritual consumerism in America. Most Americans today when deciding on which religion they want to belong to ask: what can this religion do for *me*? Just like a person deciding on which restaurant will get their dinner done fast and yet maintain quality. People want quick enlightenment and expedited transformation these days--even converts to Eastern Churches. This leads into questions of evangelization and formation of future presbyters.

Now that we have established the context of American people and what they want to "get" from religion. The bitter question is "What can a Ruthenian Church give me?" If they walk into a Ruthenian Church will they get what they "want." Probably not. Because most parishes that have their own code words and culture don't let newcomers in without a price of great patience. And Americans want "now" religion--give it to me now, community, values, ethics, morality, change..now, now, now and fast, make it fast!

Here are some options for the Ruthenian Church or any small ritual Church 1. Die out. 2. Be absorbed into a larger sui juris Church or be administered by it. 3. Change to fit the American context of acultural identity--a Church not based on culture or ethnicity, but on relevance to the demographics of the parish area--a parish that has leaders that get its people out of an insular mentality, this leads to social justice concerns, helping the poor, assisting the neigborhood, reaching out to the people on the streets, 4. Targeting special interest individuals like traditionalists, historians or wannabees, liturgical archeologists, eccentric pre-modern conspiracy theorists to become a fringe Church--detatched from contemporary context and evangelizing the common folk. 5. An ethnic enclave

I think 3 is helpful because is places the Eastern Church in the American context and is rooted in community assistance--which places people outside of ghetto mindsets. If one is to reach the people and form men for ministry and indeed all people for ministry--a spirituality of context and justice is requisite, balanced with the ascetic life in the Temple and the domestic Church.

In Christ,


Robert