www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Munhall Cathedral Rumor...

Holy Resurrection in Tennessee has been celebrating the Great Canon (Both in the 1st and 5th week) for at least six years, albeit always as something that a group of some of us crazy laity insist on doing, even without benefit of clergy.

Vespers is always being prayed on Saturday evenings, and Matins on Sunday mornings as well. This is not being done in the context of the parish mission, but it is fairly well-known that it is going on in private homes. Isolated individuals are beginning to gather to pray these services in communion instead of in isolation. (And pray them in their fullness. All kathismata, unabbreviated. All canons, unabbreviated. Sunday Matins routinely will run 3+ hours.) Preliminary talks are underway for groups to gather for additional readers services of Vespers on weeknights. Others have begun to publicize regularly scheduled praying of the little hours on certain weekdays.

The numbers are still small, but in the last year or so have been growing. While once there may have been one or two in isolation, now there are a few groups of two or three. But even this is significant in a mission that has only about 35 members spread over a few thousand square miles.

If our experience is any example, the people are hungry for liturgical prayer, and are not going to be denied. With any luck, perhaps one day the clergy will wake up and utter Gandhi's famous line, "There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader!"

Speaking of "full cycle of services";

Isn't the true standard for a full cycle of services, the celebration of daily services? I keep reading about how Orthodoxy is a truly liturgical religion, about how many great Russian and Greek saints -- parish priests, not monks -- celebrated Divine Liturgy and the requisite portions of the Horologion every day, about how Orthodox parishes are supposed to have daily Matins and Vespers, etc; and yet, how many Orthodox parishes in the West actually have daily services? From what I know, there are fewer and fewer Orthodox parishes in the "Old World" that have daily services. Among the Patriarchs, only Pavle of Serbia celebrates Matins and Divine Liturgy every day.

In a previous thread I enumerated the Orthodox parishes that have daily services, and I don't remember anyone ever adding to that list. It seems that far too many Orthodox parishes have full services for Saturday night and Sunday... and nothing at all for the rest of the week.

Now, how about the Greek Catholics? They may not have Vespers and Matins, but at least there is a fair number of Eastern Catholic parishes that have daily worship, even if it is by means of daily and abbreviated Divine Liturgies. It is not the ideal; it may be a deviation from Byzantine tradition; and yet, does not this practice keep sight of the heart of the matter -- the DAILY LITURGICAL WORSHIP OF THE LORD?

What is the use of a beautiful liturgical tradition when it can't even be practiced anymore, and effectively exists only on paper? This is the question I've been asking every so often in various Eastern Christian fora, and nobody has been able to give me a reply. What I know of the Byzantine rite in its fullness entrances me beyond measure, but the painful fact remains that it seems impracticable outside the monasteries. Perhaps it is time for the Orthodox to heed the call of the 1917-1918 Council in Moscow for the development of a "Parish Typikon" that will make a daily cycle of services practicable on the parish level. If not, the Orthodox talk about how theirs is a "Church that celebrates the Divine Liturgy" would continue to look like wishful thinking. I say this without intending to be offensive or insulting. I'm just stating what I see. A truly liturgical Church worships everyday, not just on Sundays.

As a Roman Catholic who seeks to attend Mass and recites parts of the Liturgy of the Hoursd everyday, I simply cannot imagine a liturgical life limited only to Sundays.

Yeah, What's wrong with us Orthodox? We ought to be ashamed of ourselves! We've been too lazy up 'till now. AsianPilgrim, you have shown us the way. I believe that the modern Roman Rite Morning Prayer (Lauds), Mass, and Evening Prayer (Vespers) could all be done without hurrying in under an hour. True efficiency. That's what the Orthodox need.

Fr David

Dear Father;

Well, I agree that the current Roman liturgy is minimalistic, but its better than nothing!

It is not a question of efficiency. 15 minute Lauds and 12 minute Vespers and 25 minute Masses are, doubtless, NOT what the East needs. And I've written elsewhere about the need to give Catholics the option of using the full Western Divine Office (as represented by the medieval, Benedictine and 1568 Breviaries) instead of the truncated remnants we have today, so have no fear that I'm advocating that the East follow us Romans. In fact, I'll be the first to beg the Orthodox to NOT follow the way of the Roman liturgical reform.

My question has to do with fidelity to the ideal of DAILY LITURGICAL PRAYER. The Eastern Orthodox books I've read also present this as the ideal; why aren't more Orthodox parishes doing it? Between minimalistic daily liturgical services and no services at all, which is preferable?

Just to return to an early comment regarding the CCEO. A comparison of the CCEO with the Latin Code suggests that, in portions of the text which were not peculiarly Eastern in focus, there was little originality, but much mirroring. I'd not give much credence to the thought that Eastern canonists toiled laboriously over it. Rather, I suspect that Curial gnomes (minutante) of what has been correctly labeled 'the colonial office' are largely responsible for its content.

Many years,

Neil

Father Deacon Lance,

Thanks for the post. I will respectfully disagree with much of what you have written. But, for the sake of the argument let us use the 20% figure (although I think my local ROCOR parish does approach 40% and the OCA parish maybe 30%). For a parish that gets about 150 people at the Sunday Divine Liturgy this is 30 people. We must get away from this idea that prayer is not worth anything unless the temple is full of people. If the prayer of a righteous man is powerful (James 5:16) the prayers of 30 righteous men are extremely powerful. I�ve seen the praying of Vespers and Matins by 30+ people together with the Divine Liturgy literally transform a parish (that is, adding Vespers then Matins to a parish that already had a good Sunday Divine Liturgy). And even two people praying Vespers and Matins in addition to the Divine Liturgy can transform a parish.

I will agree that the problems are complex. The way forward is to renew our parishes into centers of prayer � liturgical prayer. We gather as Church to worship the Trinity. If our prayer is not to be the prayer of the Byzantine Church � Vespers, Matins and a full Divine Liturgy � then there is really no reason to be Byzantine at all! Look at the ROCOR parishes in greater Pittsburgh. Parishes of all flavors are dying everywhere (including from the loss of population to more economically vibrant areas of the country). Some of the ROCOR parishes there are thriving. Why? A friend in Pittsburgh tells me that the ROCOR parish near him is full of Greek Catholics. There is much food for thought there.

--

Father Deacon Paul,

Cannot you see the sense of despair in those who seek the fullness of the Byzantine Liturgy?

Cannot you see the hurt in the people who have had the foundation of the way they speak to God shaken by being needlessly forced to abandon the words and music they have prayed all their lives?

Consider that the long term criticism of what our bishops have done might be just because for a long time our bishops have sought to prevent us from praying our own liturgical tradition correctly?

I seem to remember that you suggested that people like me who cannot accept the RDL should leave. Why do you have no sympathy for us? Do we not have the right to discuss these issues and to petition our bishops and even the Holy Father?

Yes, all the faithful are important. But suggesting that we are making false accusations is, at best, an improper use of Scripture. It is wrong of you to make false accusations under the guise of attempting to provide comfort.

No, he has not been criticized at all. He has no control over the issue. The criticism is about what has been mandated and is directed at the decisions of those who are responsible � the bishops. If the rubrics tells you, as a deacon, to enter the altar through the south door after praying a litany and you enter instead through the north door (or � ugh! � the Holy Doors) is it not appropriate to point out the rubric to you until you get it correct? Such is not a criticism against your person but against an action you have taken. But if the rubric is wrong and the bishops are wrongly telling you to enter through the north doors (or the Holy Doors) is the criticism for the incorrect rubric a personal attack against you? No. Neither is it a personal attack against pastors or bishops. And it is this second situation that we have here. The criticism is offered against what has been mandated. It is not personal against a specific individual. It is legitimate criticism. Here we have a situation where everyone can review the official books and see that the bishops have prohibited following them, and ordered something that is really disobedient to both our own liturgical tradition and to the directives of Rome. And this at a time when the Holy Father has guaranteed the right of Roman Catholic priests to pray an older form of the Latin Mass. It seems to me that the criticism given to what our bishops have mandated is very just indeed, and is Sensus Fidelum in action.

John

Father David, By saying that my parish celebrates a full cycle of services, I meant that we have Vespers every Saturday, the third and ninth hour and then Liturgy on Sunday.

Also add the proper lenten services, (Great Canon, Pre-Sanctified), and that is what I meant by a full cycle of services.

Well, how about daily services....

Not that I wish to be provocative, but can somebody please explain to me why daily services -- even, say, the singing of Third and Sixth Hours -- are not possible in most Orthodox parishes.

Many (most?) of their priests must work a secular job in addition to their priestly duties making it unfeasable.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Parishioners work also. How many would actually be able to make it? Obviously only the older retired people.

John,
I tried to find my original quote but was unsuccessful. As I seem to remember it there were two or three vocal people who were very vociferous in their objections and very obviously lost their peace over the translation and music changes. I believe that I stated that if they were that upset then it may be better for them to leave (rather than become bitter). It wasn't coldhearted as you make it sound.

I did find my quote which still holds true today:
We are a "curiosity" to the Roman Church and an unwanted stepchild to the Orthodox it appears. We should be able to relate well to the early Christian Church and its relationships with the Romans and Jews. Maybe we should carry our crosses and become close communities as they did.

Our Rusyn Greek Catholic Church probably NEVER celebrated the Divine Offices to the standards of the Muscovites or even the Kyivan standards, and certainly not up to the royal Constantinopolitan level. I recall reading how poorly trained our priests were around the 17th century and were truly "second class" to the Hungarian Roman priests. We are a peasant church. Our people (think about it)did not sing harmoniously, but shouted (joyfully) to the Lord with all their hearts. (I re-experienced this last summer in Slovakia). "But this is not refined;" this is not the way we sing in America.
So the music has been adapted several times over the past 50 years. Now that we will have a new Cantor Institute leader it will probably change over the next few years and .... here we go again....

So where is my rambling going?? You know, in terms of eternity it really doesn't matter.

With regard to my use of scripture....... its what I am called to do. If the Spirit moves me to use it, I shall do so until my pastor or bishop tells me not to.

O Lord, be merciful to me a sinner.
Fr. Deacon Paul

How about Readers' Services? Anyway...

This is my point. It seems to me that the drift in many ByzCath threads is that the Greek Catholics are somehow liturgically inferior to the Eastern Orthodox because they "do not celebrate full services" and "Latinize the liturgy" and "abbreviate too much." Now, all of that may be true. But you know what? At least a large number of Greek Catholic communities have daily liturgical worship, no matter how imperfect, no matter how "hybrid." The point is -- they pray!

As for the Orthodox: the Saturdays and Sundays may scintillate with shaking chandaliers and full services and lots of incense, but the churches are empty the rest of the week. How can that be the true portrait of a "liturgical church"?

As long as the Orthodox cannot even fulfil their own ideal of daily Matins and Vespers, I don't think they have the right to look down on the Greek Catholics. Greek Catholic liturgical practice is flawed? Well... so is Orthodox praxis.

I have a Greek-Filipino friend who converted to Catholicism, no kidding. Among other things, he was scandalized by the fact that the Greek Orthodox missionary priest in our city spent the day at the parish office, eating, sleeping and going to the malls and parks, while the church remained empty all week save on Sunday mornings. He could not help comparing this example to that of the despised "Latins" who at least had parishes that had masses and prayer services all day, not all of it led by priests. He is currently a Dominican tertiary while canonically remaining a Greek Catholic.

My own spiritual director is a French Jesuit with biritual faculties who once served in Romania as a Greek Catholic priest. He would sometimes relate to me his experiences and memories of his missionary work and, according to him, the main difference was that the Greek Catholic priests would sing the full Divine Liturgy every day while the Romanian Orthodox would do so only on Sundays. It really made an impression on him -- as it has on me.

C^ABA ICYCY XPUCTY !

An old witticism hereabouts goes �If you want to know how to be Orthodox just ask a Greek Catholic. Even though their priests don�t do it their people spend hours complaining how it should be.�

What I see as important is if it is relevant. Why is it better to have one Sunday three hour Liturgy for 30 people instead of two tandem 90 minute Liturgies for 300?

Our old defenders of orthodoxy are today branded troublemakers by the new breed of despot clergy. Arrogance is not sugar when in the priest�s silver spoon here in the New World where even the peasants have PhDs. The post Vatican II perspective of our trinitarian armed cross goes: �the top bar is for the cross God gives us to bear it�s the smallest, the middle arm is that which the world gives us to haul it�s the largest, the bottom is the cross the bishop gives us to carry, he�s crooked�.

If this thread was for Byzantine Catholics specifically rather than Greco Catholics in general forgive my trespasses.

We don't even advertise regularly anywhere at our little UGCC apostolate/outreach in a closed RC school and attendance at the usual Saturday night Vespers led by a deacon is about 15-20. We have people who drive over an hour one way just for Vespers. We also started with Compline and some other services in people's homes until finding a more permanent place.

There are still people out there who are willing to gather and pray according to the Greek Catholic tradition of the Church and who are craving a solid liturgical heritage.
FDRLB