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all sort of nut job "churches"! Greater New York, Indonesia? the cult sounds like something one would find out in Granola Land (California), particularly in Hollywood).kyrie eleison!
Much Love,
Jonn

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hey dude granola is good!

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Maybe their icons should stream granola?

------
Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

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There are two publications by Melton on Religions in America and Churches in America. They each are 3 volumes and give detailed information on the doctrines as well as the geneaology of the churches. (The church publication is divided according to 'group', i.e., Chrisitan, Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, Spiritualist, etc. and shows the interactions that the various groups use to legitimize their provenance.)

It makes for fascinating bed-time reading, although one can get kind of involved and once again, it's 2:30 a.m. - and you're not even on-line!

Dr John

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Also associated with the "Gnostic Orthodox Church" is a company you may be aware of: Monastery Icons. Here's some information on them.


Prodomos'/John's post at CAF, which quotes Father Anthony Nelson's article on Monastery Icons -while historically accurate, is outdated. The current situation is presented in a ByzCath thread here, most particularly in my last post to the thread (3rd or 4th from the end).

However, the common styling of "Gnostic Orthodox" aside, there is no relationship between the GOC discussed above and Abbott/Swami Burke's Gnostic Monastery or any of his other ecclesiastical ventures, Monastery Icons, its new parent - Sacred Arts, the Ashram, etc..

Likewise, Mustard Seed (which has actually been around for a while, altho not under the same ownership, I don't think) has no ties to Burke's group. Nor does the Springfield body have ties to the GOC of which I'm aware, altho they may share beliefs in such matters as gay marriage.

Interestingly, though, MS is probably the newest iteration of what was formerly a bookstore loosely affiliated with THEOCACNA, the ecclesia vagante par excellance of Patriarch/Metropolitan/Primate (I forget which he uses most recently) Victor Prentiss (now there's a pairing - him and his church - that will give pause and evoke headshaking among students of the genre). THEOCACNA long had its cathedral in Springfield, MA - albeit the patriarchal residence was deep in Arkansas (a locale that caused Prentiss to not-infrequently be termed "Patriarch of the Ozarks" - an unappreciated styling).

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Here's the site on independent "catholics" mentioned above: ind-movement.org. There is a continuum among them, ...

Yes, that's Tony's site. As I've commented in the past, he's not without his own idiosyncrasies but I give him credit for acknowledging that there are, among the players in the scene, some truly strange folk. You're incorrect, however, in suggesting that there is a continuum in either the true vagante or the "independent" movements. Were there not such egos involved (and, in several instances, such pathology) there might have been. Certainly, when Utrecht was extending the "Dutch touch" to the various and sundry individuals who arrived on its doorstep, they undoubtedly perceived that the potential existed to extend their influence beyond Europe. But, none of the hierarchs so-ordained got much past the gangplanks of their return ships when they realized that what they really wanted was to head their own ecclesia, unfettered by oversight from a northern European pseudo-Vatican.

The combination of such entrepreneurial ambition and, in other instances, outright embarrassing shenanigans caused Utrecht to abandon hope or disavow the lot of them in short order. These were the circumstances that resulted in only the PNCC remaining in communio sacris with Utrecht. The Dutch were slow, however, to decide that they were not going to get involved with any more of this ilk, but they finally did and there was a long period in which no North American would-be bishops were directly consecrated by the Old Catholics. As memory serves, the Canadians who set out to develop a sui iuris Charismatic Catholic Church/Rite were the ones who finally managed to break the embargo but, on their return to these shores, history repeated itself. Had the Old Catholics been more selective, there might well be a vibrant, although small, presence of persons in the US with actual ties to the Utrecht Communion. As is, there are several small ecclesia which actually preserve and promote the theological and spirituality of Old Catholicism, as it was - something Utrecht can no longer claim to do.

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Unfortunately, in the last 20 years many of these players have decided "Old Catholic" is no longer as exotic (or profitable) a modifier as "Orthodox," so many now pretend to be us.

Actually, vagante and "independent" "Orthodox" are nothing new; although the Catholics have been afflicted by the problem for a longer period, there's been an Eastern component for at least a century, more actually. And, while the actual terminology "Western Orthodox" might be of somewhat more recent vintage - the mixing or hybridization of the two (West and East - Catholic and Orthodox) has been a constant phenomenon since the days of Vilatte and others of his ilk - long before the Antiochians or Russians would have given any serious consideration to the idea of WRO.

The grandeur of vesture, the smells and bells, who knows what prompted it. But, it is easy to speculate that some Oriental Orthodox prelates were favorably impressed by the appearance at their throne of Western "clerics/hierarchs" seeking to be received under their omophor. What was in it for them? The assuredly appealing prospect of seeing their ecclesia gain a foothold in the New World, particularly given that their faithful were few in number outside the historical bounds - this could represent a chance to evangelize in cultures otherwise not available to them because of language barriers, etc. It had to be a heady and flattering prospect.

Of course, we of the East also produced our own men of ambition, who couldn't resist the opportunity to lead their own churches, for whatever reason. Anthony Aneed, Aftimios Ofiesh, Leon Chechemian, are just a few of the many among our own ranks who made the leap into the murky world that has its name from the disenfranchised hierarchs who lost favor with their patrons among the medieval nobility or found themselves wandering because of changes in the political landscape.

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Al Green (not THAT Al Green) has a website dedicated to these groups, which is pretty comprehensive.

Al's list was, at one time, comprehensive. It is almost impossible these days to claim that, unless one is willing to devote one's time to the genre as a sole topic. The internet has made it possible to create and maintain such entities - on an international basis even - much more easily than ever before. The life-cycle of these bodies was once measured in single digit years, with some exceptions - the few who are readily recollected, like Carfora, Gul, Vilatte, Mathew, etc. Now, it's not uncommon to see "bishops" who could not hold a candle to those pioneers survive and prosper - at least in the sense of maintaining a continuous existence that is measured in decades. Webpages are cheaper to erect and maintain than empty "cathedrals" - even if the latter are in your family room or garage. Photo opportunities when a legitimate hierarch visit's the area provide fodder for the webpage and give an aura of respectability that previously could only be dreamed about It's scary how often vagante sites are adorned by photos of the resident "bishop" with - or next to - or in the general vicinity of - genuine, honest-to-goodness, unsuspecting hierarchs, blissfully unaware of being used.

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There may be some nice people in vagante organizations, but they usually get upset at the deception involved in joining and humbly submit themselves to a canonical church. Those who remain vagantes, try to get Orthodox to join their churches, and wage war against "the ecumenists" (every legitimate Orthodox Church) are worth avoiding at all costs.

You generalize. The tendency once was to label all such as vagante, excepting Utrecht, the PNCC, and the "non-canonical" Orthodox. But, there are Churches out there that don't fit those definitions, but which really don't deserve the pejorative label of vagante, with all the baggage that it carries. As these persons believe themselves to be honest messengers of God's Word and apostolically ordained to bring it to others, they are unlikely to see themselves as deceived or deceivers. (Many of them are so remarkably akin to us in theology and spirituality that their continued distance is amazing - until one stops and considers our own situations.) But, if such was the case, we could hope for all the truly committed Christians outside Catholicism or Orthodoxy to come to one or the other of us, forthwith. Regretably, that isn't happening. For those, who pastorally serve the spiritual needs of some who might otherwise be unchurched and unsaved, I remain grateful that they are where they are and hopeful that they'll come home, but I don't necessarily expect it.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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all sort of nut job "churches"! Greater New York, Indonesia? the cult sounds like something one would find out in Granola Land (California), particularly in Hollywood).kyrie eleison!

Not as weird as one would think. The largest Christian body in Southern California is the Roman Catholic Church. The Archdiocese of Los �ngeles is the largest archdiocese in the nation. As well, I had never really met a non-Christian till moving to the east coast. Certainly the West side of Los �ngeles gets all sorts of 'weirdos' moving in from out of state, but that should not reflect upon those of us whose families have been there for a few generations.

A few years ago I went to visit my family and a friend of mine came with me so he could see Los �ngeles. One day we went to the mall and while I was buying a box of chocolates for my grandmother he decided to walk around the mall. He said he felt a bit odd since he was the only 'Anglo' in the entire mall. Well, while he was walking around he said that a few Asian teenagers were walking by and swearing up a storm. Apparently, one of them yelled out, "Jesus f%&*@ing Christ!" at his friend, upon which everyone in the mall within earshot of the guy crossed themselves. He said he was absolutely taken aback since he had never seen anything like this before.

Now Northern California is a different matter entirely...

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Yes, Northern California is a tad different.

On Pascha on year (Easter and Pascha having been celebrated on the same day), I was walking down the street, and I saw this gentleman with a beard, I said to him, "Christ is Risen." And he responded, "Indeed..." And then he scratched his nose and said, "Well, I used to believe that but now I am an atheist."

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However, I was talking with a Russian Hieromonk one day, and he said that just before the fall of communism in Russia, the Patriarch went to visit the Politburo for a major meeting. He greeted them with "Christ is Risen" in Church Slavonic and almost all the members responded, "Indeed, He is Risen" also in Church Slavonic. They also looked slightly embarrassed and scratched their noses too.

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Originally Posted by Byzantophile
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all sort of nut job "churches"! Greater New York, Indonesia? the cult sounds like something one would find out in Granola Land (California), particularly in Hollywood).kyrie eleison!

Not as weird as one would think. The largest Christian body in Southern California is the Roman Catholic Church. The Archdiocese of Los �ngeles is the largest archdiocese in the nation. As well, I had never really met a non-Christian till moving to the east coast. Certainly the West side of Los �ngeles gets all sorts of 'weirdos' moving in from out of state, but that should not reflect upon those of us whose families have been there for a few generations.

A few years ago I went to visit my family and a friend of mine came with me so he could see Los �ngeles. One day we went to the mall and while I was buying a box of chocolates for my grandmother he decided to walk around the mall. He said he felt a bit odd since he was the only 'Anglo' in the entire mall. Well, while he was walking around he said that a few Asian teenagers were walking by and swearing up a storm. Apparently, one of them yelled out, "Jesus f%&*@ing Christ!" at his friend, upon which everyone in the mall within earshot of the guy crossed themselves. He said he was absolutely taken aback since he had never seen anything like this before.

Now Northern California is a different matter entirely...

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!just yeaterday I told someone that the older I get, the less amazed I am by things. have to retract. I wish that here in the Bible Belt that people would react in same or similar mode when they hear some cretin belch out a blasphemy at the top of his lungs. yeah, San Francisco may be more appealing to the eye than say LA, (from what I have seen on tv) but you MIGHT just have something there, bro.life is full of ironies and paradox. just what we need to keep us all on our toes.
much Love,
Jonn

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Indeed !

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