www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Do You Believe In A Literal Hell ?

Dr. John:

I don't know, noise is a torment for me so often--just love to get away somewhere in the country where all you hear are the leaves rustling. And rats, why can one say--there are four and two legged varieties of those that can make life "Hell."

So maybe Hell is like the New York subway--just that there are no terminals to get out.

BOB

On this subject. The teaching of the current catechism is . The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

The Baltimore Catechism goes even a little further in it's description. Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments.The damned will suffer in both mind and body, because both mind and body had a share in their sins. The mind suffers the "pain of loss" in which it is tortured by the thought of having lost God forever, and the body suffers the "pain of sense" by which it is tortured in all its members and senses.

The belief in actual eternal damnation among Catholics today is probably not widely believed in, because in the estimation of many it is inconsistent with their belief in an all loving and merciful God. Therefore once again we have the argument that the word of God must not be taken literally, and so it opens wider the door to rejecting any teaching we feel is unfair, outdated, cruel etc.

Lawrence:

I passed on this idea in my reading some time ago and it gives those who would reject a Hell like the catechisms describe something more patristic to think about.

Our God is a living fire. He is the source of warmth and sets our hearts on fire with love for Him. He warms internally the people who love Him, accept Him, and strive to serve Him. This fire can be seen in people who are obviously God's People, but also ranges from a little glowing ember to a raging fire. We see it in people that we obviously see as directly inspired, but also in those who quietly go about doing what Jesus would do. God already has established Heaven in their souls.

The other option is for those who reject God now and close Him out. Their hearts are stone cold. Some may appear not to be so, but He sees the truth of the condition of each heart and knows what is there.

In eternity, we will continue in the state we are in now. Those who love God will have Him permeate their being and they will be at one with him. As the dikiri has two candles come together but one can still see the source of each, we will be in communion with our Creator, not losing our own identity but rejoicing and relaxing in His embrace. So if you don't feel Heaven, it might be time for a good confession to get back on track. It might also be time to pound on the door of Heaven and ask for an increase of faith. On the other hand, those who reject God now will continue to have Him trying to embrace them, but the fire of His love will feel like a torment because it will surround them on the outside and not permeate them. And they will be tormented because they will find that they will have to deal with Him Whom they have rejected here. Their own selfishness and self-centeredness will keep God out and provide all the torment they need--constantly asking "Is this all there is?" We, hopefully everyone here, will be in ecstasy because when God is all there is we will be completely fulfilled. If I've got Him, what more do I want or need to fulfill me? And the best part is that there will none of the distractions that keep us from focusing exclusively on our relationship with Him.

OTOH, what could be more of a torment for eternity than to have nothing but the One we have rejected being the whole focus of our existence? Can you imagine spending unlimited time with someone you can't stand? Translate that to God and those who reject Him. The fire of the Divine Love will itself be enough to burn like the flames of the Hell so many have come to imagine from the things Jesus mentions in the Gospels.

Two copper pieces for tonight.

BOB

I very much like harmon's posting - I've not heard that presentation before, but it seems to be right on target. It's one's own state that creates the heaven and hell with relationship to God and to God's name: Love. (God is Love; whoever abides in love, abides in God, and God in them.)

I understand Lawrence's posting from the Catechisms. The critical issue is the word "state" that one exists in. This says nothing about "location". To be honest, as one of a 'certain age', I lived through the Catechism classes, the 'blue book' (Grades 1-4) and the "green book" (Grades 5-8) and I don't recall at all the words as posted above. (We had to memorize the various Q+As, and had to write them out verbatim as part of a daily quiz.) To this day I still can recite many of the Questions: "What is forbidden by the 5th commandment? Murder and suicide, also fighting, anger, hatred, revenge, drunkenness and bad example." (Kinda pushing it on the last 6 - but it made a point if you were 11.)

The main point is that our post-death experience is indeed the result of where we are/were. The spiritually closer to God, the better. The farther away, the worse.

Unfortunately many of our people have joined the Archdiocese of Hallmark, with all the kitschy-ness that sells chachkies - whether cards, bunnies, chocolate eggs, or Peeps (I love them!). Or the insane stuff that accompanies Christmas each year. And this stuff has been incorporated into the trappings of many peoples' spirituality.

Christianity, like other faith communities, is an adult affair. Generally speaking, it is an attempt to impose order and values on our human lives so that we are not mere 'animalia' who fight for survival and procreate. Christianity, as the child of the Divine Promise made to the Hebrews, has the responsiblity to take the revelation given to us (and the whole world) and to order our lives according to the Divine directive of loving God and our neighbors.

We get into severe danger when we confuse the representational style of the message with the reality. The representations are merely an attempt to transfer knowledge of spiritual reality in accessible form. Unfortunately, too many confuse the representation with the actual truth.

Monastics know this; their entire existence is (should be) devoted to solitude and prayer as they attempt to come closer to the Spiritual Source of reality, which is God. As St. John of the Cross (Carmelite) noted, the closer one comes to God, the more one experiences an interior silence and a peace that is 'wordless'.

Too often Christians get caught up in the billboards/externals that promote or 're-present' the faith, and forget the Scriptural admonition to go into one's chamber and pray to the Lord in secret. We focus too much on the form of the icons, the words of the prayers, the liturgical gestures, the attire of the vesture, etc. and lose consciousness of the reality that is being 're-presented'. This is a big problem with the Evangelicals who are always preaching about "Jay-zus!! and bible-study classes, but don't emphasize the internal quiet that is necessary for a connection with God. So when the 'preacher' (=talk) is found in error or sin, the congregant loses faith. If one is grounded in personal silent prayer and spiritual communion, the failings of the pastors or bishops or 'overseers' have little to no impact.

(A Western Church wag once commented, after an exhortation about spiritual warfare, and the battle between St. Michael and the Fallen Angels, that there must have been feathers everywhere. I think I see a video game in this!!)

Blessings to All!

Dr John

I believe in an actual hell and I believe in a literary hell.

Terry, I think that that statement kind of begs the question. An 'actual' hell as a state of existence after death? Or a physical location, with coordinates?

I also presume that you meant to write 'literal' not 'literary', but the question remains the same: state of being vs. physical location with coordinates?

I have no doubt that there is a 'hell', but I think it is a post-mortem spiritual existence rather than some place one travels to.

Blessings!

Dr John

I most definitely believe in a literary Hell - I've frequently encountered it in much that passes for "writing" these days!

Fr. Serge

Quite insightful !

I have felt likewise for years.

The fire of God's love is infinite. It is paradise for those who love Him and hell for those who don't.



As usual, your posts are worth much, much more . . .

Be well.

-- John

HELL YES!
the Bible teaches it and that settles it.
what is the difference between an American Baptist and a Southern Baptist?
the American (Northern) says there ain't no hell, the Southern one says the hell there ain't!
Much Love,
Jonn

Theophan's post is the Orthodox teaching.

Interestingly, Catherine of Genoa, whose writings have received an imprimatur, wrote that the fires of purgatory (and likewise, the fires of hell) are the flames of God's love.

Sounds Orthodox to me.

I think Catherine of Genoa got it right.

Edmac

Depends what you mean by a "literal hell".

Is there a physical place called hell? No, I do not think so.

Will the souls of those who chose not to love during their lifetime on earth, spend eternity alienated from God and suffering the natural consequence of their option for selfishness and hatred? Yes, I do believe that.

Shalom,
Memo

I like and agree with your post.

I don't think that we can ascribe physical 'places' of Heaven or Hell, because we will be in another dimension which probably does not have 'places' as we know them in this earthly reality.



...kind of like how one feels on a dark, cold and rainy day (Hades/Hell) vs. the way one feels on a clear beautiful sunny day (Heaven)!!

Alice

You can believe hell is a place but don't have to!

Hell, heaven and the intermediate state are at least dimensions (familiar to science-fiction fans) or states of being. Dimensions/states of being can occupy the same physical space but normally are invisible to each other.

Which may be how God's all-consuming love is heaven to some and hell to others.

If this be the case, what happens to our Resurrection body? While Our Lord's body was not limited by time, space, and distance after His Resurrection, he did have all the physical attributes that would allow the Apostles and Disciples to see Him, touch Him, eat with Him, and talk to Him. That certainly, in my book, constitutes a physical reality in which He lived and moved. If not, then we have the "spiritual" idea that has so often been condemned as a heresy: that Christ did not physically rise but that people experienced Him in their minds and wills--hardly something I'd die to defend as did the early martyrs who saw Him.

Somehow there must be some physical dimension though not limited as it is now in its fallen state. I think we've got to be careful how far we go in our definitions because "eye hath not seen, nor hath ear heard, nor has it entered the hearts of men . . ."

I do agree that the dimension is quite another that we cannot now see or experience directly. But I also would agree that the saints and other blessed beings can see us and are present when the door to eternity that is the Divine Liturgy is opened and we join them mystically.

In Christ,

BOB