www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Mission-oriented vs Ethnic Churches

C. I. X. a. k. a. Praise the Lord

METROPOLITAN KALLISTOS (WARE)
on the future of the catholic church of the orthodox faith in the U. S.
at Troy Michigan on Feb. 19, 2008:

http://audio.ancientfaith.com/lectures/faithoffathers/metkallistos/metkallistos.mp3

My personal paraphrased synopsis only as a convenience:
One bishop per metropolitan area embracing all the varying local parish communities. These ethnic parishes form relevant chalices filled with our Eucharistic witness. This witness of these collective personalities must mission to all, transfiguring all into the unity of the body of Christ. Our various cultural values including social justice derives form these tangible parish vessel for us to drink from, a good savant to the one true unity in Christ. Our back up is the monasteries. Fanaticism nor chauvinism are virtuous. Ethnicity is a normal expression which organically evolve into welcoming inclusive communities, not exclusively shunning others with criticism and blame. This is the concern of all of us, plurality works when mutual respect of the canonical ormophoria of Constantinople together with all our various mother churches are respected. They can not create a US church but we must, they can only recognize this church. Unity means cooperation as it did in the first millennium with its checks and balances on both sides. All the baptized are responsible as the defenders of the faith, it is not the exclusivity of the clergy. We can only be one when we all respect each other. We must all feel welcomed and personally needed and wanted. Unity is not a gift but a task. We need to work at a humble, gentle and generous church as did our forerunners Saints John Chrysostom of Constantinople, Boras and Hlib of Kyiv, Herman of Alaska...

http://audio.ancientfaith.com/lectures/faithoffathers/metkallistos/questions.mp3

My paraphrased synopsis only as a convenience:
Unity and primacy as in the first millennium cannot expect to require more than what was accepted then, nor can we offer less then was expected then. We need to restudy history not in difference but in agreement of perspective�

http://audio.ancientfaith.com/lectures/faithoffathers/metkallistos/introremarks.mp3

Who, what, when and where�

I think what is at the heart of this is the question of what ethnicity and nationality mean. The church cannot exist in a void, i.e. without a human culture(s) as a context for it existing in the visible world. What I think Metropolitan Kallistos is saying is that we can't lose sight of the fact that the church encompasses, but ultimately transcends the human cultures that are part of it. The church and religion are not a function of nationality or ethnicity. Particularism is the trap which I think we must avoid, because it does not serve the Gospel; but subverts or even tramples it. His vision for Orthodoxy in the United States I share absolutely, and I hope and pray that soon the hierarchs are able to work past and set aside what keeps them apart now.

There is nothing wrong with the little traditions or the cultural elements we maintain, they can be a blessing and do good things. They can however take focus away from what is important or even detract us from doing the real work of the church.

C. I. X.

��take focus away from what is important or even detract from doing the real work of the church�� Quote AMM

Rival ethnicity, ok grudges trump love. I am sure we all understand and accept that. But what are these ethnic customs that are ethnically prohibiting? All the customs I can think of are derived from and advance the Christian experience or was baptized into it; pascha, prosphora, pyrohy, pysanky, etc. List your demons so we who cannot see the trees for the forest can meditate over them. Is it language seasoning like with Latin, or English and not having a single pan-orthodox/catholic translation standard?

Mykhayl, the church is not a cultural outpost serving those already in it. That is the real issue, not individual practices or customs.

C. I. X.

Its not? What is it then? Is not the people the church? Is not the pope�s main title �Servant of the servants of God�? If the people you have are stifled from expressing themselves in a fashion they want to share, who are you serving? Imaginary friends? Salvation is not a one time decoration any more than boys playing with their toys.

I�m just an old simple peasant boy. If you are right then give me what it is in practical examples, not fashionable terminology. For all I know we may be in agreement just don�t know it yet like us and the Oriental Orthodox.

As those of us who were history majors in college know: "Language is the preserver of culture."

Now (perhaps I am different from the average person), but I like ethnic customs that are not my own. This Spanish Catholic from California has suffered much at the hands of culturally bland Roman Catholics (Poles excepted) on this coast!


This is a different issue. For almost all of us, Latin is our 'ethnic language', liturgically speaking of course. However, I am sad to see that the ethnic parishes are not taking advantage of this. Thus the flavor of the Latin Mass revival in this country is rather bland and 'American'. We need more processions with statues and things like that.

Please forgive me, but this brings to mind Boris and Natasha from The Rocky & Bullwinkle Show. "We kill moose and squirrel."

as far as the situation with the parish council having a problem with a Russian hymn: isn't there a pan Orthodox hymnal that includes hymns from all traditions? I know that the United Church of Christ has one for their denomination. the act of that council is just as ethnocentric as some ethnic parishes. what a shame. oh, the Church is not the people, but is the Body of Christ, which includes ALL of GOD's people.
Much Love,
Jonn

That sounded like DuBois even before I saw "Falls Creek" by the side

Although I spoke with someone still upset over her italian grandfather (or was it great-grandfather, or even great-great-?) having been sent home from (Irish) St. Catherine's half a century earlier because he didn't have his pew tax . . .

St. Michael's, then? And St. Catherine's & St. Joseph's sharing clergy would kind of make clergy-based drift more awkward (though there were quite definite differences between the liturgies at the two).
Then again, when there have never been parish boundaries, and all three churches are within three blocks of one another . . .


Actually, it was when I had the time at St. Michael's wrong that I first ended up at a byzantine liturgy at Nativity, behind it . . .

hawk

Hawk,

Send me a pm prior to your next visit and I'll show you Holy Trinity Church in Sykesville.

When I first saw it, your "dochawk" handle reminded me of a family from Sykesville, Dorchak. Is this a variation of the same name?

Fr Deacon Paul

All I'm saying is any parish should be open to the community that surrounds it and do what it can to reach out to them to serve and minister to them; hopefully it can also include as many as possible and put them on the path to salvation. I'm not saying a parish needs to rend its identity to do so, that would be foolish, but some adjustments probably need to be made when the surrounding community is of a different linguistic or cultural background.

C. I. X.

AMM sorry to pick on you but for 3 pages I have seen complaints of not �being open to the community that surrounds it� and should �reach out� to �serve and minister� while not saying �to rend its identity to do so�. Although you present the most understandable of concerns to me, I am too simple of a boy to envision what these changes need to be.

Now, I think we came to a conclusion foreign language does not make a parish �ethnic�, that would be its style of decorating, presenting and eating. So we have developed another category; foreign language parishes along with ethnic and mission parishes. As mentioned Pope John VIII and Saint Methodius agreed in 873 to proclaim the scriptures in both the liturgical and vernacular languages, I trust parishes that salt and pepper their services in something other than English are not �foreign language parishes�, that would require sermonizing and disseminating information as catechetics. As many of us can still remember what Latin was to the old Mass, that is what Slavonic or a derivative is to our umbrella of staples, no matter what the people�s language mix is or is not. Vatican II merely popularize English in our Liturgy not replaced the Slavonic. A Liturgy in Slavonic does not a foreign language parish make, though Vespers, Matins, Pre-sanctified or Akathist in Ukrainian, Slovak or Spanish on a regular schedule could.

The now labeled ethnic parishes I think I can get a handle on, it is where we dress our children in what we think is old world dress, to sing Christmas carols our grandparents sang with Americanized accented before a service, giving us the opportunity to get un-churched Uncle Bill, sister Stacy and cousin Wally in church without the need for the demise of a family member. By the way new immigrants snicker at these attempts to �keep the traditions�. Often these parishes survive financially by giving people with nothing they want to do a place they want to go, with opportunities to join in giving them opportunities in being needed and wanted. Thursdays anytime between 6 AM to 2 or 4 they can come to help us pinch pyrohy dumpling together. These are more than fundraising factories they are social mixers under the guise of �Boshue work�, where lunch is served and friendships forged. The foreign language table is usual those born here who know a foreign language wanting to use it so not to loose it. The new immigrants coming here with their sons and daughters usually sit at the English language or bi-lingual tables as this is the only chance they may have to practice their English besides TV. When one is going for their citizenship test EVERYONE learns US government. If they come back on Sunday �Slava Bohu�, if not we�ll meet at the funeral home where their pyrohy friends will sing a panahyda requiem when their time comes even if the funeral is in a RC, Orthodox or Protestant church or non. It�s a work of mercy both ways.

A mission parish� explain please what are the needs in one SPECIFICALLY, I do not understand. I do admit that there is at least a dozen Eastern Christian churches I can attend in the time it takes me to travel to the one I do, so maybe I am simply ignorant to the needs of a mission parish, not saying we do not need to be aware of these needs also. If I do not like the color scheme around the Lord�s grave in my parish I can simply attend services at the church in my home town, or if I miss Saint Michael�s day I can go down the street from my parish 13 days later, of course that requires that I miss Saint Demetrius Day. I have offertory envelopes from a couple parishes and attend according to my time availability and their ability to meet my specifications for sanctification while I am with them. It just might be as simple as I told you, I may be unaware in understanding what your specific needs are. Please spell it out. What don�t we do that we should do to be sensitive to your needs? Besides updating the church marquee and web sight so it doesn�t read "Khrystos Rozdyetcha!" when you bring your basket with spaghetti sauce, pepperoni and chocolates to the Pascha food blessing.

Anyone?

Unless Bishop Dino decides that he wants a married priest to teach in a Catholic university, and we then find a way to support my family during the time I'd spend in the seminary (teaching at a Pittsburgh Catholic university???), it's unlikely that I'll ever be in that part of the country again


Nope. It's short for Dr. Hawkins. I've been using hawk since high school, but as time passed, more and more sites already had someone registered as hawk. It was also great for the students. It's on my license plate, too

Please say hello to Fr. Deacon Fatula for me when you see him.

hawk