www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pew Study on American Religion

Hello,
This is a bit of a rant because I have strong feelings about this. The shortened version is that the best thing to do is be there. I recently went to a conference that found the more structured the faith the better youth retention was. Amish had the highest outh retention followed by Mormons. People want sturcture they are relaizing when people tell them it is ok not to believe in this or in that then eventually they end up not beliveing in anything. I am sure you will get more like me who are looking for more structure.

I am a Roman Catholic who is looking to start practicing the Byzantine Catholic tradition. The reason for my shift is because the Churches I know have become to concerned with numbers and Priests seem to be starting to say anything to please people just to get them in the door even if it goes against what we believe and are supposed to teach. We need to continue to follow the Lord and his teachings and the Church. We can not mold it into something socially acceptable. Jesus did not teach easy things. It is not supposed to be easy, it is saying yes when everyone says no and saying no when everyone says yes. Jesus was not crucified for teaching a soically acceptable message. He was teaching radical ideas that seemed impossible to do. What if Jesus really meant what he said? That would terrify most people. I think it is good what is happening. I would rather travel 50 miles to spend Sunday with people who love the Lord and want to be there because of that Love, are devoted to the church, and to hear what Christ said and how we can best respond to God's awesome love.

Great discussions everone!! I believe that the reasons stated by so many of you (Harmon3110, CDL, Alice, etc.) all have a part in this.
The only thing that I can add to this is what I experienced growing up as a Protestant and having MANY former Catholics in our church. In speaking to these people, I found three reasons to be most dominant in why they had left the Catholic Church:

1) They became adherents of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (as John pointed out, poor catechesis)and therefore the Church had gone astray.
2) The Liturgy/Mass didn't resonate with them, it didn't fill a void that was missing in their life, it didn't apply to their daily lives. (again as John pointed out)
3) The social network and missionary networks allowed them to be a part of an active church community (again, pointed out previously).

Points 2 & 3 are probably the most relevant to the average church goer as the 1st point is only for people who like to post on forums such as this ( !!) The conservative protestant churches tend to:

a) not support abortion
b) have larger families
c) not be overly charismatic

So on these three points someone leaving the Catholic/Orthodox faith might not be treading on unfamiliar territory. However, combining these with points 2 & 3 above, they now feel part of something larger than themselves. There is always something for them to be involved in (bible studies, youth groups, missionary trips, childrens programs). Specific Protestant groups are far better at this type of outreach than what I've experienced as a ByzCath so far (which is not very long ). But it's these very activities that draws and retains people to the Protestant Churches. I recon that people who switch amongst Protestant churches are going to one that is similar to the one they just left, but that they may agree with the pastor and his church a bit more as regards doctrine (this of course as we all know is a huge problem).

Anyway, I could go on, but I'll stop here.

In Christ,
Aaron

The newly retired parishioners are moving to be with their aging parents to better care for them. Then there are some who have moved to obtain better employment opportunities and escape the traffic jams and crime rate here in Los Angeles.

Maybe she could talk to that (suspended) Episcopal priestess that fancies herself both Christian and Muslim . . .

hawk

ALICE:

Secular man worships plenty of "gods." There's the "god" of power, the "god" of prestige, the "god" of wealth, the "god" of working too much, the "god" of gluttony, the "god" of spending too much time on the computer, the "god of success, the "god" of (fill in the blank).

There are all kinds of things and distractions that can become idols in life and even spiritual practices can become idols IF THEY BECOME ENDS IN THEMSELVES--something we've all got to be careful of.

That's why when I fall or fail to keep my prayer rule or break the fast, I am reminded that these are not ends in themselves, but the means to deepening my relationship with Christ. He's the center, the beginning, and the end of my life--He's not some abstract figure and He's not just part of the general mix of "being religious." He's the One I go to and admit that I need Him more than He needs me--and I need Him badly.

In Christ,

BOB

...so undeniably true!

Aaron, that is a very useful post. I have heard (in my conversations with ex-Catholics and dissatisfied Catholics) similar things: dissatisfaction with worship, an active (welcoming) church, and lots of things to do.

On the last point (lots of things to do), part of that is having more clergy. But a big part of it is getting people (more than the same dozen) to volunteer to lead and do things . . . and that can be difficult. How can that be overcome?

-- John

When you get people to stop thinking and acting as if theri entire religious life is an obligation that they must undertake. AND also get them to stop thinking in terms of what and how much they have to do--the minimalist approach.

Anothr way to look at it is the answer to a question. Is my religion something I "tack on" to the rest of my life? Or is my religious practice part of a primal commitment to Jesus Christ that is the source and summit of my life, more important than anything else?

Or better, do I view my entire existence through the prism of my commitment to Jesus Christ and live accordingly? Or is religion some option to all the other ways people look at life and live it?

Good luck.

BOB

Bob that was a great post! I see the obligation and the minimalist approach. But how to change it. Maybe to simply say it is not enough. It is not enough to show up and mumble the words. Faith is like a bus and if it hits you head on you will be changed by it. So how do we teach people to go play in the traffic?

:::applause!:::

Well said, Bob !

-- John

"Faith is like a bus and if it hits you head on you will be changed by it. So how do we teach people to go play in the traffic?"

I like this simile. It is the Spirit of Truth that teaches them, I think. We can pray if they do not listen to our words or our life, especailly if they shut their ears to the lives of the saints and to Church teaching.

Terry

MAURA, JOHN, AND TERRY:

My answer is a sermon that I heard when I was five years old and that I consider the pivotal point in my faith pilgrimage.

My pastor was 78 years old and one morning he preached a sermon that has stuck in my memory as few others have done. He said, "Faith is a gift from God. Many people in this church this morning probably do not have this gift. Faith is a gift that you have to ask for. And God will give it to you if you ask for it. But God doesn't give this gift of faith at the first asking. You have to ask for it again and again and again. You have to keep asking for it until He gives it to you."

He wasn't saying that one does not receive the gift of faith at Baptism. I believe what he was referring to was the fact that many of us receive the gift but we leave it wrapped up in the gift wrap that it comes in: we carry it to church on Sunday morning and carry it back home with us unaltered. We go through the motions but the motions stay on the top like our clothing, never penetrating the inside where the secret part of us lives with God. The point of taking it to church is to give it nourishment, like plant food is for a plant: faith needs to be fed to grow and flourish.

I remember this was the "Children's Mass" where we all sat with our grade and I was in the first grade. I was leaning against the outside wall and it was cold. I couldn't see around the corner of the sanctuary wall so I didn't see much of Mass but this sermon, when he was standing in the pulpit where I could see, caught and kept my total attention.

So I started walking along when I was alone with no one else around--outside in the yard; or walking to the bus stop; or alone in my room--saying, "Lord, give me faith. Lord, give me faith. Lord, give me faith." And I'd stomp my feet in a rhythm. I did this for a year. Then in the second grade I got hungry. I couldn't get enough of the catechism. All the lessons seemed to burn themselves into my brain. The rest is history. I've been challenged by those in my family who couldn't understand why anyone would do more than they had to do. I've been persecuted for refusing to compromise what I have been taught: "go along to get along" has never been part of my make-up; compromise is not in my lexicon.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that one must be open to God; one must ask for the gift of faith (and make sure that it is a gift in and of the Faith (read true Faith; not what so many mean when they say "my faith" that may be a mix of doctrine and personal opinion that leads to some weird conclusions); one must nourish this gift with prayer and study and constantly trying to make the lessons part of one's life. And one must constantly ask, "What does the Church teach?" I don't give a hoot what I might come up with. I am always looking for correction and my constant prayer is that I say nothing that would compromise the Deposit of Faith or give another either the wrong information or a bad, scandalous example.

It isn't a thing that can be taught, but it can be caught. The Holy Spirit is blowing around looking to see whose nostrils He can blow into--like the Genesis account of giving Adam life. When He comes, He looks for a willing vessel in which to dwell and He will take the gift , unwrap it, and make it grow. All He needs is the "yes" that imitates the Theotokos' "yes" that made it possible for God to become like one of us but without sin.

Good luck??? May "God look" on those who are ready for Him and make them grow, too.

BOB

Beautiful post, Bob.

I was taught to repeat,

"Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief."

EM:

I've done that, too. Because the faith journey is not one continuous upward movement. Mine has had lots of "downs" as well as "ups." There have been terrible dry time when it is a struggle to even pray; when liturgical attendance has been a struggle; when the temptation is to "chuck it all" and move on.

But like, St. Peter, I've always come back to, "Lord, to whom should we go? You have the words of everlasting life."

It seems to me that once Christ is part of your life, anything or anyone else is like cold, day-old coffee or cold, dry toast--a big let-down. Take Him out of your life and like that song goes, "There's a hole in my heart that can only be filled by you."

But I've also been told that a significant faith experience CAN'T be had by a child. And if one doesn't have a "faith jolt"--like St. Paul being knocked off his horse--then one has no faith at all. (I don't buy this, as you can see.)

My son recently asked me if I would tell him about my faith journey and I've been putting this together for him.

BOB

Dear BOB,

Thank you for sharing your story!...

I do think that some are 'called' to the faith journey from the time of their childhood and can have a significant faith experience as a child. I was one of them as well--(though, admittedly, there were those teenaged years when it wasn't important in my life).

Alice