www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Another Open Letter to Father David

I also attended the Uniontown Pilgrimage for the first time last year(2007). It was a very moving and powerful experience, however the Acathist Hymn borderlined on being an abomination. I mentioned my dismay to a veiled sister who dismissed my concerns. I told her that this was a slippery slope to start down, she informed me that they would not change the language used for GOD. I also found the remarks made by Mother seraphim to be filled with many new age buzz words, and she couldn't find one Byzantine Father or Mother to quote. The sad truth that the last vocation they had is the most orthodox and faithful member of that community and has suffered at the hand of members of her own community who have an agenda that seems to be different than building up the Catholic Church. Perhaps im just an ignorant layman, but I believe we have no authority to alter Divine Revelation to suit the times. How empty is our seminary? Let us pray for a genuine spiritual and liturgical renewel for the Byzantine Catholic Church.

Father David Petras,

I should also add that orthodox Christians have just survived a decade of the likes of Dan Brown, the Jesus Seminar, Elaine Pagels, and a few gusts of sophia theologies mixed in with latter-day gnosticism and anti-anything Catholic or Orthodox. So, excuse me if I am a bit uptight when I see subtle rumblings in various Catholic churches who have a difficult time ascertaining their identity as Christians of the True Faith. Hopefully, they will take a much needed glance at their fellow Orthodox Christians for guidance seeing how they have such a hard time following Rome.

Ed

one more thing---

If it is true that THOSE behind the push for inclusive language were nuns (as a number have claimed and experienced) then we have a case of a group of celibate women instructing celibate men what the *needs* of women are. Nothing against their choice in lifestyle; many celibates are fantastic people who have been wonderful examples of virtue and Christian example.

Second, Father David Petras ignores those men who ARE married to women and who are instructed DAILY on the needs of women - help around the house doing chores, attention, giving her *space* at times, loving her, being with the children ... he also ignores those women who ARE married and do not like the inclusive language. No attention to their *needs* here.

Third, as soon as Father David Petras and others stop considering those who take an opposite position as hysterical or conservative, the discussion will advance from the common ad hominem levels of grade school.

Fourth, Father David Petras has still failed to answer the question of WHO pushed for inclusive language behind church doors. No information, so far, has been given on HOW, WHEN, and WHERE such a push has made them adopt it. Father is very good at side tracking the question. I would appreciate it if he can answer the question this time around.

Ed

Ed,

Since we are being bold in asking questions, I would like to ask you a question -- Why, if you are not an Eastern Orthodox Christian, do you care so much about these things?

You will forgive me if it appears that sometimes you are just "itching" for a fight. A certain offensiveness is attached to the forthrightness of your questions to our beloved Fr David -- who deserves respect even when you disagree with him.

This question and observation (though in a form not as deferentially worded) have occurred to me also a number of times, and so I would "add my name" to the post.

Under the indicated invective, however, there are some very legitimate concerns and questions. Too often, the response to such concerns and questions is superficial -- lacking in detail(s), not forthcoming -- which, even if unintentional, is still a special case of stonewalling. This can be very frustrating and even insulting in is own subtle way.

As a separate example that is a very objective case: the release of the "letters" from Rome authorizing service books. We have the first one, 1941 (published by the sender); why not then the 1964 and 2006? All the "show us the letter" protests (and I have not voiced one of them) would stop, and the facts, the contents of the letters, could then be discussed in the light of day.

Dn. Anthony

I have appreciated Ed's forthrightness. I have wondered myself about many of his questions. They concern hot-button topics, and somebody should be asking them. Really, somebody should be answering them--but that's wishing for the moon and the stars.

Deference has its place, but when Fr David describes opponents of gender neutral language as hysterics who want to put women in their place--well, respect is a two way street.

Part of respect involves engaging with interlocutors. For example, it involves answering direct and straightforward questions about Greek grammar and translation after proclaiming one's expertise in the field.

I would rather see Ed's and Deacon Anthony's questions answered than stonewalled.

Yes. I have also become weary of this lame analogy. Why is slavery used as a justification for the gender neutral feminist agenda. Perhaps the radical feminists feel a type of enslavement when they cannot move their agenda forward?

Well, thanks to the RDL, they have won a battle, but I am guessing they have not won the war (so to speak).

Ditto.

And I would like to add, that virtually every Byzantine Catholic male or female I have spoken to, are offended by gender neutral language. The majority on this forum are offended by gender nuetral language (even those who support the other RDL translations and music). Virtually every deacon and priest on this forum (except two) are offended by the gender neutral language. Virtually every Ruthenain Catholic and Orthodox clergy I have spoken to (outside this forum) are opposed to gender neutral language.

So Ed asks a very valid question. What precipitated the adoption of gender neutral language? Why did this politically charged experiment take form? We are looking for direct answers. We are weary of hearing analogies about slavery.

Amen.

I would "add my name" to this (above) post also.

Dn. Anthony

Gender Neutral Language comes about the same way that no prayer in schools and other practices do. One person yells really really loud about how it offends them so things get changed to please that person and the thousands of people offended by the change are concidered evil or too conservitive or even against womens rights or free thinking if they speak up.

I'm sorry, but when in the Liturgy the priest said, "for He is gracious and loves mankind" WHO did not know or understand that mankind refers to everyone? We had to have the banal and unconvincing "for He loves us all?"

Also, I've met the priest who did the Uniontown translations--it was NOT the sisters who translated those books. He seemed orthodox and Orthodox, so one has to wonder how inclusive language came into the books they published.

I also add my name to the list. To describe those who hate gender inclusive language as hysterical is a joke. Perhaps their is a better word for us, orthodox and faithful. Sometimes people educate themselves right out of the Faith. I too would like to see Father David answer the question. I know for a fact that their are 20 priests in the BCC who are old enough to retire and they will if forced to use the inauthentic and inaccurate RDL. By the way, our Orthodox brethren consider it as inauthentic and inaccurate as well, so much for getting closer to them. Father David, another question, why is our seminary so empty? Why have some students been pressured to leave for not towing the party line? Tough questions, no disrespect intended. May Our Lord Jesus have mercy on us all.

Father Mack,

I don't see Ed itching for a fight. In fact there wouldn't be a fight at all on this subject had the RDL not been jammed down the throats of people.

Why doesn't the BCA just allow the full Rescension as well? Then we'd all be able to see the full Rescension given a chance rather than repressed for so long. Our are only innovations allowed? I think that the results would be very positive. Why the closed minded thinking by not allowing it? For those who want to tell me that the full Rescension is not banned, then where can we start with one parish? Let's put it all on the table.

Monomakh

To answer your question directly, it seems odd for someone who is not Orthodox to harp constantly upon the fact that BCC do not use the word Orthodox.