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Dear Byzantinophiles;

I'd like to know what the "customary structure" of typical Greek Catholic / Byzantine Catholic parochial Matins and Vespers are, and how these compare to typical Matins and Vespers in Orthodox parishes.

The reason I ask is because I've noticed (from schedules on websites as well as from videos I've watched) that Greek or Byzantine Catholic parochial Matins and Vespers are somewhat more abbreviated (some 15-30 minutes for either from some examples I've seen) compared to Orthodox parochial Matins and Vespers (about 45 mins - 1 hour, sometimes more). So, I was wondering: what is the structure of such abbreviated Matins and Vespers? Which elements are removed and which ones are normally retained?

No bashing or polemics, please. I'm just asking about the structure of these services.

Are you sure the videos you are watching are not edited? I have never served Vespers that did not take at least 45 minutes, the same for Matins and that usually runs longer.

There are some abbreviations that are common among both Greek Catholics and Orthodox, some are more common among Slav usage others among Greek usage.

At Vespers:
The Kathisma Psalms are not taken on weekdays and on Sunday it is reduced to 6 verses of Pslam 1 with triple Alleluias.

The Vesper Psalms 140, 141, 129, 116 are reduced to 3 verses of Psalm 140, along with 10-6 verses needed for the Stichera.

(I've seen Psalm 103 reduced to a couple verses but only in OCA parishes)

At Matins:
The Six Psalms are reduced to one Psalm.

The Kathisma Psalms are not taken, on Sundays one Psalm from each of the prescribed Kathismas is taken.

The Polyeleos Pslams are reduced to 8 verses

Gradual Hymns are omitted

Canons. The typicon prescribes 3 Canons for Sunday, almost nobody does 3, taking only one, sometimes omitting the troparia only taking the irmos of each ode.

Psalm 50 is sometimes omitted.

The Pslams of the Praises are reduced to 3 verses of Psalm 148 with the 8 verses needed for the Stichera.

I've never seen or heard of the Six Psalms being reduced to one Psalm in an Orthodox Parish. I have heard of and witnessed them being cut down to three psalms. Usually the first three Psalms are done one Sunday, the second three done the following Sunday. St Vladimir's Seminary used to do this for Daily Matins, but Sunday Matins had all Six Psalms, I believe.

Cutting the Six Psalms is not a good practise. It is an important liturgical unity and should be done in its entirety at every Matins (except Paschal Matins, of course.)

Fr David Straut

There is no question that these are common abbreviations in both Orthodox and Greek Catholic churches. But my question is: how much time does this really "save" and what is the cost to the general structure of these services?

The 'Lamp Lighting Psalms' (Psalms 140, 141, 129, 116) are a very important part of Vespers. Admittedly, if the often omitted middle verses of these Psalms are chanted with Byzantine chant, they take five minutes or so. But is they are chanted quickly on one or two notes (as is so often the case) they take about two minutes. Is it really worth cutting them?

The Praises or Lauds (Psalms 148, 149, 150) are an essential part of the morning Office in both East and West. Cutting the central verses may be a common practise, but it is not a good practise. Again: chanting the central verses of these Psalms quickly on one or two notes takes all of two minutes. They are too important to the structure of the morning Office to omit them.

Fr David Straut

A small correction: The six verses are actually taken from the first stasis of the first Kathisma of the Psalter: two verses from each of the three Psalms that make up the stasis.

Fr David

Actually, four canons are almost always appointed at Sunday Matins. The typical lineup of four canons at Sunday Matins is:
The Canon of the Resurrection from the Octoechos
The Canon of the Cross and Resurrection from the Octoechos
The Canon of the Theotokos from the Octoechos
The Canon of the Saint of the Day from the Menaion

If there are two Canons for the Saint(s) of the Day appointed in the Menaion, the Canon of the Cross and Resurrection from the Octoechos is omitted. During the periods of the Triodion and Pentecostarion, the Canon from one of those books typically replaces the Canon of the Saint of the Day from the Menaion.

For all I know, it may be true that "almost nobody" uses all the Canons at Sunday Matins. If that is true, sign me

Almost Nobody

Fr. David,


The Six Psalms are a Monastic import. Cathedral Matins had Three Psalms (3,62,133) recited with the refrain: Glory to you O God. If a priest is going to recite the Prayers of Matins aloud in their proper positions, as is done in some places now, it seems reasonable to reduce the Six Psalms. Perhaps a return to the original Three Psalms of Cathedral Matins is in order for parish usage.


It has been pointed out on this forum that at least in the Ruthenian Usage, where the people actually sing the Opening verse of Psalm 140 and the Stichera in the Tone of the week, it makes sense to not interupt the melody of the Tone sung Psalm 140 verses and the Stichera with the straight chant of the remaining Pslam verses of Pslam 140 and 141. Of course anther solution would be to sing the all of the Pslams 140 and 141 in tone with Hear me O Lord as a refrain until the Stichera are reached.

Fr. Deacon Lance

AP-

As you may have gathered, in the US both Greek Catholic and Orthodox Orthros/Vespers follow basically the same books. The question is:

1. whether or not a parish has these services
2. what abbreviations the parish makes

That varies by jurisdiction and parish. (also note that many Slavic parishes put both services together Saturday nights into a Vigil).

Frequently, Catholic parishes will have no Orthros or Vespers, and in some jursidictions there are a good number of clergy/cantors who aren't familiar with Orthros.

I have yet to see an Orthodox parish that does not have Orthros. Times that I've seen from parish websites range from 30 min. to several hours. Some parishes don't have Vespers. I have heard that ROCOR parishes typically do most or all of Orthros during a vigil service (though I've never been to one, and don't understand Slavonic in the first place, so I couldn't tell you ).

In our parish, Sunday Vespers takes about 35 minutes (with a the shortened kathisma already mentioned and without readings, Litiae, etc.) and Sunday Orthros takes about 1.25 hours (no kathisma psalms, and only the katavasia of the canon).

For what it's worth, I believe "full" Great Vespers, if chanted simply, will take around 45 minutes and "full" Orthros will take around 2.5 hours. This would change if one uses elaborate music. I say "I believe" because I've never been to a parish that times this regularly, so I can't say. If someone has different times, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Markos

Father, bless!

Well, how do YOU do the All Night Vigil / Matins / Vespers? I remember you once said that it takes you 2.5 to 3 hours to do the All-Night Vigil. I've listened to a recording of the hierarchical All-Night Vigil and it lasted some 3 hours too. How does a typical ROCOR All-Night Vigil go like?

AP

The 15-minute morning "Divine Praises" before the Divine Liturgy that I see on certain parish websites refers to a simplified form of Matins approved by the BCC, right? At least, that is what this post says:

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=3306588&postcount=10

Some other BCC parish websites (as well as some Melkite ones) mention Matins as beginning some 30 minutes before Divine Liturgy. A few Orthodox parishes have the same thing.

I've watched a video of a complete parish Vespers in the BCC and I think it lasted 36 minutes.

Pilgrim,

This is going to sound accusatory but the consistent sense that I get, from your posts in this and other threads, is not one of intellectual or spiritual curiousity. Rather, there seems to be an ongoing effort to "catch" us - Eastern Orthodox and Catholic - in some deficiency of praxis, of failing to satisfy whatever standards of orthopraxis that you have discerned from reading texts or watching videos.

Disabuse me of this notion if you will, but stopwatching parish Vespers in the temple of any Church to make a point that my Ruthenian brethren are not "doing it right" or challenging my brother, Father David, to demonstrate "how it should be done" both strike me as argumentative, confrontative, and denigrating, albeit subtly and softly - disingenuously if you will. None of this strikes me as particularly contributory to dialogue, education, or spiritual growth. Am I missing something?

Many years,

Neil

Dear Moderator;

First, I was not challenging Father David to demonstrate "how it should be done." I was simply asking how All-Night Vigil is typically done in ROCOR Churches. There was absolutely no intent of critiquing ROCOR or what; I was just asking. For the record, I admire Father David and the work he is doing to observe the traditions of the East. Now that I think of it, perhaps I should have added a smiley after my question so that any sense of tension would have been dispelled. English being my second language, I still forget that what might seem innocuous to me could come off as heavily connotative of argumentation for you.

As for "catching" the Ruthenians as "not doing it right", in a previous set of posts (over there at "Munhall Cathedral Rumor") I actually made the point that there is no sense to accusing the Ruthenians / BCC of being "inferior" to the Orthodox, and I took the pains of pointing out there, some Ruthenian and Greek Catholic parishes that have a full and lively liturgical life. And, as a Latin Catholic, I have made it clear again and again that whatever "faults" the liturgical life of the East may have, it is still overall much better than the state of Roman Catholic liturgics.

In my OP for this thread, I made it clear that I am NOT after "polemics" and after Ruthenian or Greek-Catholic bashing. I just noted that BCC / Ruthenian services are quite short, and so I asked what elements have been retained and which ones have been removed. I am after the contents, and for me, "short" is not necessarily an accusation. I have some posts in which I pointed out that, ultimately, what is important is NOT the length, but the fact of prayer. I would like to know if it is a sin to even mention that sometimes BCC services are short? Well, a lot of posters here have said the same thing.

Perhaps you think I'm too obsessed with details here. But, precisely the point: I AM asking about liturgical details, the kind that I wouldn't know from reading books and websites. My posts on ByzCath are but one small portion of my world, and certainly do not reflect the totality of my interests and activities. At most, it reflects my real-life role as a sacristan and as a sort of "liturgical details question box": hence my interest in the smallest details of liturgical services.

Dear Asian Pilgrim,

The Lord bless you!

I am a little confused by this question, but I'm answering it in good faith. The Vigil Service is Great Vespers, Matins, and First Hour. In our parish it does last from 2.5 to 3 hours, 2.75 being the usual length.

It is easier, I think, to tell you the usual cuts we make to the service rather than to say what we do.

At Great Vespers:

We sing the Six Verses "Blessed is the man..." rather than read the whole First Kathisma of the Psalter.

At "Lord I have cried..." after we have sung the stichera for the Resurrection, we often read (i.e. intone on one or two notes) the stichera from the Menaion.

We only do the Litya on Great Feasts and Feasts of Celebrated Saints (e.g. St Nicholas, St John of the Baptist, St John of San Francisco, etc.) not at the usual Saturday evening Vigil.

At Matins:

We read three psalms instead of the two full Kathismata appointed for Matins. Hence one Small Litany is omitted.

The two sets of Sessional Hymns are combined at the end of the Psalter reading, omitting the theotokion of the first set of sessional hymns. The sessional hymns are read (i.e. intoned on one or two notes) rather than chanted.

The hypakoe and Anavathmoi (Hymns of Degrees) are read (i.e. intoned on one or two notes) rather than chanted.

When the Polyeleos is appointed, we sing 8 selected verses rather than all of Psams 134 and 135. (However, we do sing all of Psalm 136 after the abbreviated Polyeleos on the 3 Sundays appointed in the Pre-Lenten period.)

When Psalm 118 is appointed to be read, we sing only the first dozen or so verses up to "Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes."

In the Canon, we use all the appointed canons, but we do shorten things a bit by:
(a) only singing the Irmos and Katavasia in each Ode, not the troparia, which are read;
(b) not repeating troparia, if they are appointed to be repeated;
(c) omitting the theotokia in the Canon of the Resurrection and the Canon of the Cross and Resurrection;
(d) only taking 2 troparia on the Canon of the Cross and Resurrection and the Canon of the Theotokos, even when 3 are appointed; and
(e) usually only singing the Katavasia after the 3rd, 6th, 8th, and 9th Odes instead of after every Ode.

At "The Praises," after we have sung the stichera for the Resurrection, we often read (i.e. intone on one or two notes) the stichera from the Menaion, when they are appointed.

Asian Pilgrim, is this what you were interested in?

Fr David

In my parish we have Sunday Matins which runs about 45 minutes or so. On weekdays, Matins runs about the same. On Saturdays at 5 we have Vespers with Divine Liturgy, so it is only part of Vespers. Sadly, it is only a few times a year, such as Pure Monday, when we have the full Vespers which is so beautiful. However, we are blessed that our priest has daily Matins.

Sometimes the time announced for Matins runs over, but this is often due to starting on "Byzentine Standard Time."

That is, indeed, a great blessing!

Fr David Straut