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Bill from Pgh Member
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Dear Bob,
In regard to your remarks above, one must learn to discern the teachings of Vatican II from what some regard to be the "the spirit of Vatican II".
I have read so much about what is wrong with the "modern Catholic Church" from all of my inquiries thoughout the years and from the internet that I started to buy into it. I finally asked my 83 year old father, who has been throughout my lifetime an examplary of the Catholic Christian faith(I can count on one hand the times I've heard him use a cuss word, and less many times heard him gossip about others), what he thought of the Church today as compared to "the way it was". His answer, "Go forward, not backward". That was all I needed to hear.
Borrrowing from a hymn from our Protestant brethren....
Onward Christian Soldiers!
Bill
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John Member
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There is an icon that portrays Christ creating Adam in the Garden, they are presented as identical, so our iconographic tradition would seem to support Fr. John's statement because to produce a type, Adam, one must have the prototype, Christ. This appears to be nothing more than clashing imagery. Adam was the first man, but was created in the image and likeness of Christ. Because Christ�s image and likeness preceded Adam from eternity He is first. One can put forth an argument that since the incarnation was known before time Christ is first and Adam is second. But one can also look at it in time, and this is how the Church presents Christ as �the new Adam�. Our liturgical texts are full of such references to Christ as the �new Adam� and the �Second Adam� just as they liken the Mother of God as the �New Eve� and the �Second Eve�. Both images are logical and correct. But you can't mix them. From the Matins of Palm Sunday:
With our souls cleansed and in spirit carrying branches, with faith let us sing Christ�s praises like the children, crying with a loud voice to the Master: Blessed are You, O Savior, who has come into the world to save Adam from the ancient curse! In Your love for mankind, You have been pleased to become spiritually the new Adam. O Word, who has ordered all things for our good, glory be to You! (Matins, cf: 1 Cor 15:45) This liturgical reference includes �spiritually� but others do not.. St. John Chrysostom is interesting: St. John Chrysostom, Homily 41 on Corinthians
[6.] Ver. 45. "So also it is written, (Gen. ii. 7.) the first man Adam became a living soul: the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit."
And yet the one indeed is written, but the other not written. How then said he, "it is written?" He modified the expression according to the issue of events: as he is wont continually to do: and indeed as it is the way of every prophet. For so Jerusalem, the prophet said, should be "called a city of righteousness;" (Is. i. 26.) yet it was not so called. What then? Did the prophet speak false? By no means. For he is speaking of the issue of events. And that Christ too should be called Immanuel; (Is. vii. 14.) yet was he not so called. But the facts utter this voice; so also here, "the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit."
And these things he said that you may learn that the signs and pledges both of the present life and of that which is to come have already come upon us; to wit, of the present life, Adam, and of the life to come, Christ. For since he sets down the better things as matters of hope, he signifies that their beginning has already come to pass, and their root and their fountain been brought to light. But if the root and the fountain be evident to all, there is no need to doubt of the fruits. Wherefore he says, "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit." And elsewhere too, He "shall quicken your mortal bodies through His Spirit that dwells in you." (Rom. vii. 11.) It is the Spirit's work then to quicken.
Further, lest any should say, "why are the worse things the elder? and why has the one sort, to wit, the natural, come to pass not merely as far as the first-fruits, but altogether; the other as far as the first-fruits only?"�he signifies that the principles also of each were so ordered. Nicholas Cabasilas: Nicholas Cabasilas, �The Old and the New Adam� (ellopos.net)
INDEED man's nature was created in the beginning for the new man, and mind and desire toward the new man were built. We were given thinking in order to know Christ; desire, in order to run to Him; memory, to remember Him, because even in the time of our creation, it was He our archetype. Because it was not the old man the exemplar of the new, but the new Adam was the exemplar of the old. (...) And while the one brought in the imperfect life, that needs a thousand aids, the other became for men the father of immortal life. Our nature harried from the beginning to immortality, but it arrived afterwards in our Savior�s body, who by himself resurrected it from the dead to the immortal life. He was the leader of immortality for our kind. And to complete my word, it was the Savior first and only Him who showed us the real man, the perfect in ways and life and everything. And we have from Vatican II: From Vatican II�s Gaudium et Spes (Pastoral Constitution)
22. The truth is that only in the mystery of the incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light. For Adam, the first man, was a figure of Him Who was to come,(20) namely Christ the Lord. Christ, the final Adam, by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and His love, fully reveals man to man himself and makes his supreme calling clear. It is not surprising, then, that in Him all the aforementioned truths find their root and attain their crown.
He Who is "the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15),(21) is Himself the perfect man. To the sons of Adam He restores the divine likeness which had been disfigured from the first sin onward. Since human nature as He assumed it was not annulled,(22) by that very fact it has been raised up to a divine dignity in our respect too. For by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man. He worked with human hands, He thought with a human mind, acted by human choice(23) and loved with a human heart. Born of the Virgin Mary, He has truly been made one of us, like us in all things except sin.(24)
For this reason, the Second Vatican Council states that Christ �the new Adam...�image of the invisible God' (Col 1:15) is himself the perfect man who has restored that likeness to God in the children of Adam which had been disfigured since the first sin... As an innocent lamb he merited life for us by his blood which he freely shed. In him God reconciled us to himself and to one another, freeing us from the bondage of the devil and of sin, so that each one of us could say with the apostle: the Son of God �loved me and gave himself up for me' (Gal 2:20)�.30
References:
20. Cf. Rom. 5: 14. Cf. Tertullian, De carnis resurrectione 6: "The shape that the slime of the earth was given was intended with a view to Christ, the future man.": P. 2, 282; CSEL 47, p. 33, 1. 12-13.
21. Cf. 2 Cor. 4:4.
22. Cf. Second Council of Constantinople, canon 7: "The divine Word was not changed into a human nature, nor was a human nature absorbed by the Word." Denzinger 219 (428); Cf. also Third Council of Constantinople: "For just as His most holy and immaculate human nature, though deified, was not destroyed (theotheisa ouk anerethe), but rather remained in its proper state and mode of being": Denzinger 291 (556); Cf. Council of Chalce, don:" to be acknowledged in two natures, without confusion change, division, or separation." Denzinger 148 (302).
23. Cf. Third Council of Constantinople: "and so His human will, though deified, is not destroyed": Denzinger 291 (556).
24. Cf. Heb. 4:15.
25. Cf. 2 Cor. 5:18-19; Col. 1:2O-22.
26. Cf. 1 Pet. 2:21; Matt. 16:24; Luke 14:27.
27. Cf. Rom. 8:29; Col. 3:10-14.
28. Cf. Rom. 8:1-11.
29. Cf. 2 Cor. 4:14.
30. Cf. Phil. 3:19; Rom. 8:17.
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There is an icon that portrays Christ creating Adam in the Garden, they are presented as identical, so our iconographic tradition would seem to support Fr. John's statement because to produce a type, Adam, one must have the prototype, Christ. Dogmatically, how does the "iconographic tradition" serve as a source of revelation compared to the words of Sacred Scripture? Which has precedence? Deacon Anthony- Sacred Scripture, liturgy, the Patristic teachings (as found in sermons, creeds, council decrees, and hynms), iconography, etc, form our Holy Tradition. Certainly, Sacred Scripture has a pride of place. It's not a question of Sacred Scripture's trumping another valid aspects of Holy Tradition, but how these other aspects of Holy Tradition express the nature and meaning of the presence of the Holy Trinity among us as found in Sacred Scripture.
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And how did I attack Sr. Nona? I think it is fairly well known that she is in favor of women's ordination. Women's ordination doesn't comport with Catholic teaching by which you and I are bound.
I think St. Thomas is a wonderful interpreter of the Fathers. While I know the East and the Orthodox do not generally like his writings (because they serve as a refutation of Palamite principles), that may be because of a fault of the East and not a fault in St. Thomas. Luke- it will be quite interesting to see how the Holy Father reconciles both St. Thomas Aquinas and St Gregory Palamas. Both are to be topics of the Holy Father's Wednesday catechetical instruction sometime after Pascha.
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Sister Nona Harrison, an Eastern Orthodox nun dressed in a traditional black habit, claimed that the Orthodox Church is loosening its stance against women's ordination, and that Bishop Kallistus Ware has recently changed his mind and is about to publish an essay in favor of women's ordination. She added, "Given the attitude the Orthodox generally have to papal assertions of universal authority, the recent developments may have the unintended effect of encouraging further discussion of women's ordination in the Orthodox Church." Her statement was followed by cheers and loud applause.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:G-5PNZKCKDUJ:www.sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/1996/0796lp.htm+%22Nona+Harrison%22+orthodox&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Lm
Is Sister Nona in favor of women's ordination as deaconesses or priests. In the Eastern Church there is a world of difference between the support for one versus the other and most Orthodox women who are criticized for being for the ordination of women have, in my readings, been only for the restoration of the order of deaconess, not for the ordination of women to presbyterate.
Fr. Deacon Lance Fr. Deacon Lance makes a good point. The Eastern Orthodox Church has had a number of Pan-Orthodox Conferences and meetings regarding the participation of women in the ministry of the Eastern Orthodox Church and has approved the restoration of deaconesses. We have discussed on this forum the revivial of deaconesses in the Greek orthodox Church. I went to the web site mentioned as proof by lm: This is a news item written by Lesley Payne. Thus, there is no way of knowing if what he or she is reporting is true. It is his/her interpretation only of event. I also do not know if the Catholic Theological Society of America makes recordings of their convention meetings or publishes their proceedings. A lot of academic societies do both. Thus, I think there are too many unanswered questions here and I do not accept a news article as proof of the slander agaginst Sister Nona Harrison. I would also appeal to the moderator to please watch these attacks on personal character. As someone else has written here, let us please stick to disecting the written work or opinions of a scholar or writer and not attack personal character or insult people.
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Sister Nona Harrison, an Eastern Orthodox nun dressed in a traditional black habit, claimed that the Orthodox Church is loosening its stance against women's ordination, and that Bishop Kallistus Ware has recently changed his mind and is about to publish an essay in favor of women's ordination. She added, "Given the attitude the Orthodox generally have to papal assertions of universal authority, the recent developments may have the unintended effect of encouraging further discussion of women's ordination in the Orthodox Church." Her statement was followed by cheers and loud applause.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:G-5PNZKCKDUJ:www.sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/1996/0796lp.htm+%22Nona+Harrison%22+orthodox&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
Lm
Is Sister Nona in favor of women's ordination as deaconesses or priests. In the Eastern Church there is a world of difference between the support for one versus the other and most Orthodox women who are criticized for being for the ordination of women have, in my readings, been only for the restoration of the order of deaconess, not for the ordination of women to presbyterate.
Fr. Deacon Lance Fr. Deacon Lance makes a good point. The Eastern Orthodox Church has had a number of Pan-Orthodox Conferences and meetings regarding the participation of women in the ministry of the Eastern Orthodox Church and has approved the restoration of deaconesses. We have discussed on this forum the revivial of deaconesses in the Greek orthodox Church. I went to the web site mentioned as proof by lm: This is a news item written by Lesley Payne. Thus, there is no way of knowing if what he or she is reporting is true. It is his/her interpretation only of event. I also do not know if the Catholic Theological Society of America makes recordings of their convention meetings or publishes their proceedings. A lot of academic societies do both. Thus, I think there are too many unanswered questions here and I do not accept a news article as proof of the slander agaginst Sister Nona Harrison. I would also appeal to the moderator to please watch these attacks on personal character. As someone else has written here, let us please stick to disecting the written work or opinions of a scholar or writer and not attack personal character or insult people. Fr. Deacon Lance's question is a good one: Is Sister Nona in favor of women's ordination as deaconesses or priests. What's the answer. I've asked before and ask again: I know Sister Nona well and can testify to her outstanding commitment to Christ and His Church. Why do people feel the need to attack those with whom they disagree? I still do not understand this. The poster Im simply gave a quote and a source. How is the quote an attack? Is it inaccurate? However, Thus, I think there are too many unanswered questions here and I do not accept a news article as proof of the slander agaginst Sister Nona Harrison.
I would also appeal to the moderator to please watch these attacks on personal character. There are unanswered questions, and I certainly am wary of the press, but where is the "slander agaginst Sister Nona Harrison...[and]... attacks on personal character"? Who is slandering and attacking and where? This issue is off topic, certainly a side topic, but in fairness to all especially Sr. Nona, what was her position then, ca. 1996, and what is her position now regarding Dn. Lance's question? Dn. Anthony
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There is an icon that portrays Christ creating Adam in the Garden, they are presented as identical, so our iconographic tradition would seem to support Fr. John's statement because to produce a type, Adam, one must have the prototype, Christ. Dogmatically, how does the "iconographic tradition" serve as a source of revelation compared to the words of Sacred Scripture? Which has precedence? Deacon Anthony- Thank you for commenting Deacon John. If I may respond for your and other�s consideration: Sacred Scripture, liturgy, the Patristic teachings (as found in sermons, creeds, council decrees, and hynms), iconography, etc, form our Holy Tradition. I would nuance this differently but I think I understand the intent. Speaking of Tradition and traditions etc. can be tricky. A difficulty regarding the specific issue of this thread is that the Patristic teachings, for instance, are hardly monolithic and the Fathers can be, properly, speculative. Their speculation can be an informative and true guide, good theology, that still does not supersede or contradict the intrinsic teaching passed on to us, as we sing: �The preaching (kerugma) of the Apostles and the decisions (Gk: dogmata; Sl: dogmaty) of the Fathers have established the one (Gk: mian; Sl: jedinu) faith of the church.� [Kontakion of the Council Fathers: Sunday of the Fathers of the First Council (7th Paschal Sunday) and Sunday of the Holy Fathers of the First Six Ecumenical Councils (Sunday between 13-19 July). Cf 2 Tm 2:14, 1 Tm 3:16.] I could have asked in this thread: Is it correct that �According to the Eastern Church Fathers, Christ is the first and Adam the second man�? What then is the criterion for the validity of that assertion: one Father, said it once, or many times, explicitly or implicitly, stating more or less as was asserted that �You have it backwards� i.e. �...Christ is the first and Adam the second man. The Fathers state that Adam was made in the image of Christ -- not the other way around�; or was this stated by some or many, prominent or obscure Fathers, some or many times, etc.? How was the man/Adam/Christ/first/last language actually used? So far, from the indicated sources supposedly supporting the assertion, all explicit instances have followed the vocabulary of Scripture and not that it is �backwards.� Certainly, Sacred Scripture has a pride of place. It's not a question of Sacred Scripture's trumping another valid aspects of Holy Tradition, Since I have used the trump terminology before, just to be clear, what I said about trumping: Bishop Kallistos, V. Lossky and even the Fathers get trumped by scripture;...
Sacred Scripture, Tradition, trumps "custom." The distinction I have in mind is illustrated for instance in VCII�s Dei Verbum: The words of the holy fathers witness to the presence of this living tradition, whose wealth is poured into the practice and life of the believing and praying Church....
10. Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God, committed to the Church. The Fathers �witness to the presence of this living tradition� � Yes. The Fathers and �Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture form one sacred deposit of the word of God� � No. but how these other aspects of Holy Tradition express the nature and meaning of the presence of the Holy Trinity among us as found in Sacred Scripture. One of my favorite icons is the Mystical Supper that has two representations of Christ, one giving His body, the other His blood. For me, this is a profound statement, but I do not conclude that Scripture has it �backwards.� There are a number of issues here and I�m certainly not objecting to the concept that we are made in the image of God and that through the divine Word/Logos all things were made. I am objecting to some of the terminology, how the concepts are expressed and understood, and the priority of those concepts and expressions in relation to the words and imagery and associations presented explicitly in Holy Scripture. For instance, I think all purposes are better served by understanding the difference between archetype and prototype. In common usage the two terms are sometimes (properly) used interchangeably. Theologically, however, there is a distinction to be made for the case under consideration. The Divine Logos, Christ, is the Archetype; Adam is the Prototype (the protoplastos, the first-formed-one). The radical aspect of the Incarnation is the kenosis, the condescension � the realization that the Archetype actually takes the form of the Prototype; and with that terminology we also maintain conformity with the language found in Holy Scripture. Dn. Anthony
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Luke-
it will be quite interesting to see how the Holy Father reconciles both St. Thomas Aquinas and St Gregory Palamas. Both are to be topics of the Holy Father's Wednesday catechetical instruction sometime after Pascha. Deacon John, Christ is Risen! Thank you for pointing this out. I look forward to the Holy Father's insights. He is a very smart man and speaks with a certain authority. As you may know, the pallium he wears is modeled after that of another German Pope, Leo IX who reigned from 1049-1054 (an important time in the history of the Church). For some interesting reading, see this site by an Orthodox friend who greatly desires union. http://bekkos.wordpress.com/category/palamism/
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