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Quote by Simple Sinner....

Simple Sinner, it is true that we have married priests and married candidates, though the decision to ordain them as such is up to the Bishop, who in turn relies upon input from their spiritual advisor, and professors. Just because a candidate is admitted into the seminary, doesn't guarantee ordination, married or not.

It has been rumored in the Eparchy of Parma, of which we have two married men who were specifically ordained for our Eparchy, that it is decided on a case-by-case basis -- it is not across the board. Obviously, the Bishop still feels there are issues that need addressed. A few could be living arrangements, since most rectories are set up for a single celibate priest; and monetary, such as how to support a Catholic family.

We also have two other married priests who are with us from Slovakia.

It's not as cut and dry as you would think.

With all due respect, that is true of all jurisdictions from the BCC to the OCA to the Copts to even the TEC (a married friend of mine who is now Catholic had been accepted by the Episcopalians who actually drummed him out for what we would consider his orthodoxy.)

All candidates most everywhere are accepted for ordination on a case-by-case basis.

I didn't say it was cut and dry - in fact priesly formation programs never are.

It's all about money, I think. If there is no money readily available to support married clergy then there are no vocations. Mandatory celibacy and meager wages can be understood in this way.

Ed

What is the salary rate that a clergyman, married or not, can look forward to as being an ordained minister in the Byzantine Catholic church? $45K to $70K?

Ed

Dear Ed - dream on!

I'm tempted to add further comments, but for once I shall resist the temptation.

Fr. Serge

I almost choked when I found out that a local Greek Orthodox priest makes 100k a year!

Look forward to? Some follower of Jesus Christ that would be. But to answer your question it is same as Latin Church. About 12-18k, depends on eparchy. As a matter of fact my celibate byzantine priest refuses most of his paychecks.

If the first thng a man thinking about the priesthood looks at is the paycheck, then I hope to God he dosen't get into seminary let alone become my priest. Jesus Christ calls his followers to poverty both ordained and lay - personal wealth should be the absolute last thing and most insignificant thing on a priests mind.

Kahless,

Of course, I was speaking from my point of view as a non-clergyman who has chosen to marry, raise a family, and work, invest, and whatever. I was not speaking as a would-be clergyman.

But I believe that diocesan clergy are not monks who take vows of poverty. So, it would be wrong to EXPECT a priest to live in poverty because people mistake them for monks living alone in a rectory 24/7 for that proverbial 3:00 AM phone call. Many clergy have families, and many have to rely on their wives to foot the bill and support them as well as raie children and pay for their care.

Where do you get the idea that a celibate clegyman must embrace poverty if he does not belong to a religious order? Does he really take a vow like a monk? Most Catholic priests are not monks. Celibate diocesan clergy do not even take a vow of celibacy. My Catholic clergy friend told me that he had to sign a *promise*, not take a vow. He never mentioned a vow or promise of poverty. The church naturally puts him in that state. Dioceses can build multi-million dollar cathedrals and parish complexes, but not pay their clergy accordingly.

Other church communities that I am familiar with and experienced find value in their hard working clergy and feel it right to pay them justly and what would be considered equitable in relation to civil jobs. My rabbi friend told me that his part-time cantor makes US$45K/year at their synagogue. How generous are Byzantine Catholics in paying their singers? Are they more generous?

The Episcopalian Diocese of Rochester has a pay schedule for ordained clergy (for those who have a home or need one provided) and music ministers. What is the pay schedule in your Byzantine Catholic church?

I read here a number of times how your church USED TO have full-time singers who got paid a salary and a house for their ministry. They were sent to a parish by their chief shepherd. It was understood and expected because, like other churches, it was they the church operated. Is this still the case?

Money should not be a reason for entering into ministry. You are correct. BUT, it would be wrong to expect a man to pay for his own college, theology/seminary school, and get only an amount less than a manager at a McDonalds! It is not that clergymen are looking to make a killing in ministry (financially, that is) but that Catholic Christians are greedy with their money. How many tithe 10% of their income? 5%? 1%?

Ed

C. I. X.

Didn�t Saint Paul fix nets? It may have been the exception not the rule, but the martyr Jan Hus suggested monastic or marital discipline in order to curb clerical abuse of the faithful, but as we know even that could backfire. When our old time priests made (blessing) house calls supplementing their income, they got an idea how rich or poor the flock under their care was. How many church cantors, professors, secretaries, teachers, custodians receive no compensation and struggle to secure the financial income of a McDonald's manager for their families? This is why many parishes run a pyrohy factory. Ideally it is all a calling and vocation is for more then the priest.

Mykhayl,

Yes. Peter, not Paul, fixed nets. Paul was first a persecutor of Christians before his conversion.

Do clergy students get training in other degrees or skills so they can earn a living while being a full-time pastor of souls? The apostles were also married. Peter had a mother-in-law who Jesus cured.

How many of your clergy are self-supporting with their own careers? If they were self-supporting, you wouldn't have to pay them less than McDonald's managers - unless that is what you think they are worth.

So, one who contemplates ministry in the Byzantine Catholic church must accept mandatory celibacy, accept poverty, no family, living alone, not work a full-time job to self-support. THIS is why you will not have clergy in the future to fill the pastoral needs of your church. You want your pastors to be monks. YET ... there are churches that are smaller than yours who tithe and pay their clergy much better. It can be done. It all depends on valuation; do you value your clergy? Do you consider them as mere volunteers who get paid a bit for their efforts? How many married men with vocations will you attract if the wife does not work and carry health insurance and a salary that can support them. You'ns have no right to even discuss a married clergy if you stack up the odds against them like this. This is why you can either keep the doors open by paying for cheap celibate clergy to live like monastics or find cheaper alternatives to fill the void. You get what you pay for.

I think the world of volunteers. Don't get me wrong. But don't be too quick to lower the bar. This is a church community is willing to dismiss talent if it comes with a price tag greater than poverty.

Induced poverty on clergy encourages slick methods of raising cash. This is another problem.

Ed

Bible, just read the new testament, it is like pretty much everywhere. You want a well paid Church? Think it will solve curroption? Sure read up on the renaissance Church, they LOVED money.

Money is nothing - I reject and hate it. It is a man made illusion. Jesus Himself said it is almost impossible for the rich to get into Heaven. Christ is eternity. If men in this world won't serve Christ because they won't be getting a fat paycheck then this world dose not deserve priests.


Get what you pay for!? Excellent! The great martyrs and saints put forth no charge, and demanded no money. Greed is a grave sin, if some fool of a priest shows up demanding money, money, and more money then so long - I refuse to bring up my kids around such an antichrist. Remember the young rich man who walked away from Christ in sorrow, because when he asked Jesus what dose he need to do to get into heaven, Christ replied get rid of all his land and give away all his wealth.

You can mock us and tell how horrible we are in your eyes, claim that we hold our priests in contempt, compare to what you feel to be better Christian groups but as a true believer I stand firm.

Christ demanded one give up his family and wealth for His sake. If that is not good enough for a canidate to the priesthood then so long. He commands - we obey, Jesus Christ is our God and for Him and His Church I would gladly abandon my family and give up my life. And I speak as a soon to be seminarian.

If your doom and gloom predictions proove true then so be it -that is the way the world ends, no in a bang but a wimper. And I can hope and wish for mercy and eternity when I die, knowing that I obeyed Christ to my fullest.

Kahless,

We are not talking about men wanting to get rich by being clergy, but clergy deserving a living wage with which they can support their families decently. The Greeks tend to pay their priests well. Its seems to me they would feel shamed if their priest were not taken of. The Slavs on the otherhand don't seem to mind seeing their priests in poverty and that is a real shame.

I am a welfare caseworker, many of my clients are embarrased to be asking for assistance. Once it was I who was embarrased as a young priest with a family came in for medical assistance as his Eparchy did not give him health insurance nor could he afford to buy it on the wage he was paid.

Fr. Deacon Lance

1Cor.9
[1]Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord? [2] If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
[3] This is my defense to those who would examine me. [4] Do we not have the right to our food and drink? [5] Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? [6] Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? [7] Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?
[8] Do I say this on human authority? Does not the law say the same? [9] For it is written in the law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned? [10] Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of a share in the crop. [11] If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits? [12] If others share this rightful claim upon you, do not we still more?

Let me speak from the Roman Catholic clerical perspective. Being a "full time" pastor of souls pretty much rules out having other means "so they can earn a living." Is there a presupposition at work which implies that "pastoring" is so easy and not involving much time that a RC priest could even think about having another job?

It is true that some of the apostles were married. But quote me one verse where Scripture mentions these wives. Traditionally the Church, from Apostolic times, has viewed the apostles as mature men (John excluded from this understanding) who had already raised their families and thus had no need to dedicate themselves to these families, so rather they could dedicate themselves to the ecclesial ministry.

Are there priests in the past and here in the present who discover "slick methods of raising cash?" Unfortunately there probably are. For those who do such things, one question must be asked: will those men ever be satisfied with whatever salary they receive? I dare say that they will not, and they will probably give any justification do get what they thing they are entitled to.

And just to let ya'll know, they really hammer into us here at the sem that any sense of clerical entitlement is really, really bad.

But let's not forget that even from the first moments of the Church, 8.33 percent of the priests were corrupt. Corrupt to the point of selling the Saviour of the world for 30 pieces of silver.

We do have this assurance: such priests today, as well as those of the renaissance and that one in the Garden of Gethsemani will receive their just reward.

Fr. Deacon Lance,

You are correct. If my history studies is correct, your clergy got paid their salaries from the imperial coffers. It is hard to believe that over a century in this country your people are still peasants and cannot pay their own clergy a respectful and decent wage when the burden is now on them. I think they can, but choose not to.

And think of the compensation the next time a priest with 300 souls or three church communities gets paid the same as a priest with 1 church community and 50 souls. To hear that this is the case makes me shudder.

And then those in the seminary don't know if they will be able to marry and have a companion to share their life. This is a shame.

Ed

Jon,

It is understandable why slick methods are employed. They have to make ends meet with what little they get paid.

To live in a parsonage or rectory alone with no family or religious community like a hermit has to be a challenge. It is no wonder why alcoholism, retarded sexual growth, and devious behaviour arises at times with the weaker ones. Little pay, little respect (the scandals did a mighty fine job scrubbing away any mystery or honor the cloth naturally brought), and a church community that thinks nothing of keeping them that way; in fact, they EXPECT them to live like 24/7 hermits waiting for their 3:00 AM call.

The people I know who pay their clergyman $60K/year and their music minister and choir director around two thirds that amount belong to a small community in a not-to-affluent part of town. But they have respect for what they represent and treat their clergymen well. Instead of expecting or demanding that their clergymen live like un-vowed monastics 24/7 waiting for that proverbial 3:00 AM phone call, they send him AND his family on a week long vacation so he can R & R with wife and kids after Easter because he deserves it. He is appreciative and does not take advantage of them. He spends a great amount of time preparing his sermons (which last anywhere from 1.0 to 1.25 hours!) on Sundays. The hymns are uplifting because they are well prepared and on key. After a three to four hours Sunday worship the people are exhausted. Then they gather after like they were a family for more Bible study!!! They have dinners too, but not for paying the bills to get by (that is what tithing is for). They raise money to spend on charities, food drives, soup kitchens, meals for elderly, care for the homeless. They take the Gospel message and the instructions of the Apostles seriously.

The Byzantine Catholic church has a lot to learn from these Gospel-centered church communities.

Ed