www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Vocation Crisis

It needs to be done for your church if things continue the way it is now.

Read my previous posts about money. It costs money to run any human endeavor. Not many are opting for a monkish clergy life when they are not interested in being monks. Living that lifestyle takes a heart of gold. Less expensive ways will be taken. American-born clergy are expensive.

Ed

On paper that works well and seems rather high minded. I respect the OCA for that. But how does that play out in the matter of the 3 of the 4 priests attached to the local mission who are NOT the pastor?

With some total 1026 clergy listed in the last year book, 197 of them deacons, 829 priests... I would love for it to be true that the 829 priests listed in the last yearbook were all compensated according to the guidelines in place. Trusteeship and resources being what they are, understand, these are guidelines (suggestions).

Yea Ed I appreciate you doing what needs to be done in your estimation. It demonstrates on the face of it that you are following what I of course assume is a well formed conscious on the matter. That as the case may be, as a former seminarian who in turn no works with a lot of seminarians I can tell you that no one enters or leaves with the compensation package at the heart of their consideration.

No one.

No, I don't expect seculars to be monks (you keep foisting that one) but I don't know who here is saying that. I also don't know how many priests who live in rectories and don't have the same expenses as many pastors consider theirs the life of a force monastic.

I invite you to join our parishes on Sunday, meet our priests and come get to know us better. The formators at the seminary are always happy to have guests - do consider actually seeing (with a view of better understanding) the reality of the situations which you write so much about.

SS,

The topic was about vocations. I gave my opinion and raised a few questions. Much ado is made on formation and education, but reality will hit them square in the face. I've seen it in other churches.

I think Eastern Churches got used to the state paying the salaries of clergy and now, in a culture where church and state are separate, find it difficult to fork over the funds to pay their priests appropriately.

I just knew that raising the salary issue will bring nothing but condemnation; that it is all about the money. This was to be expected. Catholics are not very good about being good steward in funding their pastors' salaries, but find it no problem to pay higher salaries for school teachers. You see, a good school and a good football team brings in cash; hence, that is where the effort is and the higher salaries. They only expect their pastors to do their work for free, if possible.

Ed

SS,

Maybe you can, at least, answer one of my questions since you work with seminarians so closely.

Are the seminarians at the Byzantine Catholic seminary allowed to marry before they become priests?

Ed

There is one married seminarian in the seminary right now. There were two. The other was ordained and is now serving the Slovak Eparchy of Toronto.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I usually don't agree with Simple Sinner on anything, but I will on this....bringing priests over from old country is a very, very, very, very, bad idea. If anyone wants to know why, you can pm me privately.

C. I. X.

Unfortunately language is the simple part of the immigrant pastor equation. South-central-eastern Europeans are not the same as south-central-eastern European ethnics. The Soviet experience verses US materialism is enough of a difference to expect neither language will be a common one. America is such a difference with its freedom, equality and honesty it takes most 3rd world immigrants around 10 years to figure it out. At least that is the rule of thumb used by those who work with immigrants (ours and others) give for them getting comfortable with the differences and understand their ramifications.

There are other considerations, like those you bring over may after several months strike out on their own. It�s a free country. Married clergy compounds these possibilities. Unless the bishop empowers laity to actively oversee the church�s holdings and the parishioners can survive on out of the book ritual with an occasional visit from an American born priest it may be problematic. Not theologically, just perceptions of acceptable social interaction. There is exceptions on both sides of the equation.

In fact I did answer this question already:

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=282621#Post282621

On anything?

Well, small victory!

I am glad we see eye to eye on something...

I think that we had a good solid century to get past the idea that the state would be funding the presbyterate. To my knowledge, nary a one priest in the BCC has ever drawn a paycheck from the state, unless he was working in some other capacity for the state. (There have been so many priests in the past 100 years, it must be true for at least one or two...)

You think we are not generous or that we expect someone else to pay. Spend much time at our parish? Have you had opportunities to meet the small armies of volunteers at each parish that donate thousands of dollars in man hours in helping with fundraisers, helping around the church, cleaning it, repairing what they can?

Have you taken a tour of our metropolia and gone into the coal mining towns in the middle of the mountains only to come over a hill and see the domes of our churches glistening in the sunlight? Churches built by immigrants who worked 10-12+ hours in the coal mines for poor pay and STILL generously funded the building of those parishes? Some of whom even aided the construction of these parishes like it was their second job after getting out of the mines or the mills?

Yet somewhere along the way you think we still think the state is going to pay?

That being the case, I don't think a soul at my parish is of the thinking that our pastor does or should get money from the taxpayers... Your charge may ring true among Latin Catholics from Germany, as the Catholic Church is still state-funded there where German citizens paying a tax on income are expected to "check the box" to inform the government where their tax is to be applied: Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Secular Humanist orgs...


"I just knew that raising the salary issue will bring nothing but condemnation; that it is all about the money." And yet you raised it to be condemned... But it would be more accurate to say that it is all about money we just don't have...

Yea... about the well paid teacher thing, I can put you in touch with my classmates that went back to teach... They can tell you how well they are paid. (BTW, are there a lot of Byzantine Catholic parish school teachers and well paid Byzantine Catholic school football coaches in your neck of the woods? Apples & apples? Oranges & oranges?)

As far as priests working for free... To my knowledge 90%+ live in rectories with a number of expenses paid... They will never get rich (though actually the opportunity to participate in an IRA on top of their pension does exist, and none are banned from augmenting their income with approved sidework, taking stipends or in the case of my pastor, accepting commissions on icons...)

If we upped the anty a bit and through some miracle were able to find all the loose change in all the world underneath our collective couch cushions... Or maybe we all took part time jobs at night (Olive Garden put me through college) just to donate more... Maybe let it be known that throughout the metropolia we will be offering a pay scale similar to your Episcopalian buds, the part time cantors of your Jewish buds, or the 1-1.5 hour long sermon rendering buds in the "Gospel Churches" you are expecting our seminary to flood?

But again, thank you for telling us what Catholics are not very good at, and what Byzantine Catholics problems are.

"Given the state of the vocation to marriage today..."???

Please explain. Is marriage frowned upon in the church?

Ed

What on earth would make you think marriage is frowned upon?

Divorce rates being what they are, I don't see a real stampede on the part of any church or jurisdiction to ordain a 25 year old who just got back from his honeymoon as was common enough in days of yore. Do you?

Stable proven marriages are the ideal and it is little wonder - the wife of a priest is as much a vocation as any. It takes a special lady (pannis, presvyteras & matushki take a bow!) and any bishop worth his salt is going to get to know the candidate as an individual, and the candidate in the context of the couple with his better half.

If you have ever seen (and I hope you never do) clerical divorce, it is a messy, messy ugly thing and any and every sensible measure taken to preclude that possibility is well informed.

I dare say that the Church is so utterly pro-marriage, that this is of vital importance for men serving in the capacity of a dual vocation.

Simple Sinner,

That is an excellent post. It is my understanding that in the "Old Country" some bishops now will ordain a newly married man to the deaconate but will not ordain him to the priesthood until he and his wife have at least one child (and, most likely, after at least a few years of marriage). Good advice.

I do understand Ed's thought that marriage is frowned upon. There is so much confusion regarding the possibility of ordaining married men in the Ruthenian Church (i.e., no real, formal statement either way) that confusion is understandable.

John

SS,

You bring up an interesting point. But a clergyman once quipped how the church is so fearful of divorce amongst its married clergy (and it does happen) that they somehow overlooked the large amounts of money paid in lawsuits for their single clergy! In the case of a celibate clergyman involved in a sex scandal, the church only has to deal with him. But in the case of a married clergyman scandal, the church has to pay for his x-wife and children. So, I guess it all boils down to money again. At least with a celibate, the church can fight it, accuse the victim, put up a wall of defensive listening, and possibly prolong it beyond its statute of limitations so nothing can be paid out. In the case of a divorce, money is paid from the church's coffers; in the case of a celibate sex scandal, money is paid from the insurance fund. These observations aren't really mine. They come from a conference on the cost of clergy scandals. The only possible solution is not to ordain single or married men to the cloth.

Ed