www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Vocation Crisis

Ed this is your leit motiv and it is befuddles me as one who has "been on the inside".

As a Protestant outsider looking in you foist a very "Divinity School" approach to our seminary, formation programs and their ethos that simply isn't comparable.

When I was in seminary I was in there as a celibate candidate and at that time and in that track and with our bishop and vocations directors it was a known quantity for us as celibate candidates that we were pursuing our vocations as celibates.

We were not spending Wednesday and Thursday nights wondering whether we should be making dates for Friday or Saturday because we were unsure of what our vocational paths would be. By the time we were there, we had chosen a path.

The same is true today among our candidates. Candidates will either enter the programs available married, or celibate. Given the state of the vocation to marriage today, I very much doubt we will see a return to older models wherein unmarried but engaged men attend seminary then plan weddings that immediately proceed ordinations. For the most part, that is something you see less and less of even in Orthodox jurisdictions.

None of us who were on the inside of the seminary at any point were there because of financial consideration.

Our priests are not well paid, but they will go a lifetime without a mortgage payment, and they do have healthcare. Wihtout paying rent and many other expenses such as "rectory phone" being what they are, I won't argue that they are well paid, but I will argue that looking ONLY at the pay received before comparing to other professions will also be quite misleading.

No one said they were monks. Largely in most parts of the BCC in the past several decades our priests have been celibate. The pay raises have not well been in line with the pay raises in other fields I grant. I also am sad to say that as a whole, Eastern Christian communities without immigration largely have not grown either. I think they should be paid better, but we do well to not think that 18K a year (on the small end) is all they are compensated when housing, medical, and some other expenses are considered.


No one said they were monks. No one.

In your vast experience with the BCC have you noted a lot of multi-million dollar cathedrals and complexes being built these days?


Ed, I thought you knew us better. Or is this rhetorical?


I am guessing this is a rhetorical question and that you are not asking for full public disclosure on people's incomes in this forum...


Ed, I thought you knew us more intimately. Are you familiar with any parishes that could support a cantor with a house and full time salary?

C. I. X.

Oh if our parish board had the authority of the 30s, today their clout is honorary; carrying the Gospel during processions, or candles for the blessing of waters. They can do nothing but advise and only if the pastor call a meeting. Who do you think appoints those who auditing the books? If there was checks and balances maybe the council would subsidies a productive pastor�s salary. Never the less is not provided housing usually valued as 25% of one�s (tax free) income? Do not stipends (tax free tips) for requiems, funerals, weddings and house blessings add up, if he is receptive to solicit and perform them? On holydays if a pastor is respected by his parishioners and give them a reason to be there besides obligation, do you think they will only throw a nickel into his (tax free) basket? How about (tax free) gifts from the brother and sisterhoods? A parish dealing with a difficult or lethargic pastor cannot be the gage for all.

Many priests ordained later in life do have secondary professions. If they are secure enough to delegate responsibility to parish volunteers it is possible for them to pursue another professional outlet. A controlling despot only has the time to pursue other outlets if he shirks his pastoral ministry. What would be more prudent for seminaries to offer than second income training would be parish (business) accounting and management with classes in people skills. Guaranteeing a nice income upfront does not guarantee a receptive or productive minister.

It's like you took the thoughts out of my head! Here is just another reason WHY the Byzantine Church is dying a slow death. Today's parishes are run by the priest and the priest alone. We donate our time, our money, and life into a black-hole endeavor with no real world checks and balances. Faith in the Lord Our God? Yes. Faith in the HUMAN running the Church Structure? Not so much. Any parish run by a single person will fail in the end. Our Parish was able to make it 100 years until recently.

We are told "we have no money" to do any improvements. Yet, it costs $2000 a month for Grass and Snow removal? When I asked did we perform Due Diligence on the cost, all I was told by the Priest was, "yes." .. But nothing more. No papers, no quotes, nothing.

Are you telling me that while the parish assets alone equal over 1million dollars that we cannot afford a 5% equity loan to install a new ceiling instead of the dingy drop tiles?? According to the priest, "no." The church expects people to donate. The people expect the church to thrive. If one fails, so does the other. Oh BTW, Our priest lives in a 1500+ sf house, paid off, on a corner lot with a County Auditor report of an acre of land.

Now you�re going to say, That's very old school Protestant thinking Matthew.. Well, if it is, then the Byzantine Church seems to be based on an Orwellian type dictatorship.

Is the parish board honorary? Yes. And that is the reason I quit. If I cannot make a difference, then I�ll donate my time else where.

They revised the Liturgy. They removed kneeling. They changed First Communion.. Now they should revise the structure of the Parish.

Paid off? I should think so - it belongs to the parish. And that house on the corner lot - have you been there? One bathroom and all. Real fancy digs that.

What exactly does this have to do with the vocation crisis?

It is pretty obvious what parish and whom you are talking about - and honestly, I am just embarassed for you for airing your dirty laundry and gripes like that.

...we would be members of the jurisdictions and parishes that broke away over the trusteeship issue!

And that grass ain't greener.

My questions are my own. No one wants to vocations to be a money thing. Taboo. I understand. Keep your clergy as monks. You might not claim this or bury your head in the sand, but your church is set up for monk-like priests. Marriage for men in the seminary is not an option. Nothing like the Roman Catholics. You have your *traditions*. Demands and responsibility first; compensation last. You are set up in a way that cannot sustain a married clergy unless those clergy have other sources of financing available. So the talk about returning a married clergy should stop because it cannot be done. Monk-like priests are your only alternative, the ones you can afford. It is not a Protestant thing. It is a Byzantine Catholic thing. You are where you want to be.

Ed

You're right. I have never been there. Neither have my Parents who are life long members and who played a part in BUILDING and BUYING the new church (my Father is the President of the Board), nor my Grandparents (Both my Grandfathers serverd on the board), nor my Great Uncle and Aunts (who still attend).. No one in my Family who has been at the parish since before the current staff has ever set foot there. So concider yourself one of the lucky ones.

Oh and excuse me, but does a Priest need more then 1 bathroom? In anycase, you're wrong on that point as well.. Built 1978, 1509 Finished Living Space, 1 full and 1 half bath, 6 Rooms total..

http://auditor.co.wood.oh.us/Data.aspx?ParcelID=M50-812-350305001000

And it DOESN'T belong to the Parish, it belongs (as all property does) to the Bishop. In this case, it belongs to a Bishop who is no longer OUR Bishop, but you know.. that's how it goes. No one cares about the details until we have to care... until it's too late. AND MORE, if we paid off the rectory and the parish land, then Shouldn't that extra payment be available now for new improvements?

As to being embarassed, well, if there is one thing you can say about me is that you will ALWAYS know where you stand. There is nothing embarassing about that. It's God's gift to this Hot Blooded Hungarian.

Lucky for what? And I really don't care who in your family was what or has or has not been there. All things considered, being that it is not adjacent to the church property, I am having a tough time understanding why they would of or should have gone there.


Oh excuse me, it was a concern for placing a second priest or a deacon there. That sounds very sumptuous that mansion in Northwood. Do you want Father to live in a trailer? What is your beef here Matthew? Do you feel that this temper tantrum online (I hope it is cathartic to you) is accomplishing something? Do you want Father more beholden to you because as a man with a Masters who has served the Church 25+ years and making well bellow what a lot of men in other industries with that level of education... He owes you more because your family were parish members and he lives in a house paid for by the parish and owned - as you rightly point out - by the bishop?

Should we all post the government property assesment records of parish properties? You act like the parish gave him the house and it is his. Maybe you think that should be sold and he should find his own apartment on what he is being paid?


No, I don't know how that goes. I don't see your point. Of cousrse it belongs to the bishop. That is how it works. So?


Is there an extra payment to be had? Do fundraisers still bring in the money they used to? Are other expenses equal as ever? Have you ever sat down and helped a priest do the parish books?


Candor done well is not embarassing. Righteous indignation in this fashion - insinuating that maybe the priest doesn't deserve to live in his rectory is just plain odd.

I know that here on ByzCath complaining is par for the course... But if you have issues, take it to your priest and then take it to the bishop.

Thank you again, Ed, for explaining to us from the outside where we are, what we are, and how things are.

Please Ed, tell us more about who we are, how to run things, and what our problems are.

I can't figure out how we ever got along before.

Well said Fr. Deacon. In terms of what that living wage should be, the OCA site says the following


Personally, from my experience, the issue is tied directly to giving and the mentality of the church in that regard.

When meeting with Archbishop (then Bishop) Jan Babjak in Presov in 2005, along with a group of Americans from Pittsburgh (I was their translator as well as director of the tour group), he stated that his problem was that he had too many priests and not enough parishes for them to serve.

One of our group who is a Byzantine Catholic, immediately asked him why he does not send any of them to us here because we are very short priests. He replied that our Archbishop needs to request them. He would gladly send priests to America, if asked.

Does anyone know if Archbishop Basil would even consider such a notion? If not, why?

I know there's a language barrier (which can be easily overcome), but I also know that many of the Greek Catholic priests in Slovakia speak English.

Efforts to bring over seminarians a decade+ ago was a disaster. Never mind the hassle and headache of getting papers for such men (not half as easy as you think).

Looking at our historical trends of priestly vocations per capita, and now the number of venerable souls serving in the diaconate... (Why does everyone here seem to act like they are NOT possible viable candidates to the priesthood????) It would seem that we have the foundations to really improve our vocations situation, the question is do we have the will to do so?

Asking for priests from "the other side" seems to just be an end game around asking our own to serve our own.

Exactly!