www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Bartholomew Visiting Pope Benedict Tomorrow !

I find the humor both spot on and touching, actually.

To think that we live in an age when the Ecumenical Patriarch oes to Rome on unrelated business, and stops in for a visit with the Pope! What's more, this visit ends with praying together in a chapel, and an invitation by the Pope to the Ecumenical Patriarch to participate in the next Synod of Catholic Bishops!

Obviously this isn't full reunion, but I think I think we're perhaps a bit jaded by the times that we're not falling out of our chairs at this news.

Peace and God bless!

Here ya' go. Your guess is correct.

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=11703&size=A

Has anyone read this:

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Very interesting. I noticed that the link includes the Patriarch's own thoughts from the speech he gave at the anniversary. It sounds as if he's really taking this renewed connection and understanding between the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Communions very seriously. Obviously a lot of work remains to be done, and many obstacles are firmly in place, but it seems clear that mere dialogue for dialogue's sake is not the goal of the Ecumenical Patriarch. The fact that he's refering to Catholic Churches as "Sister Churches", and adopting the "two lungs" language is very significant, IMO.

Sounds like there's a real will for reunion building up in the higher levels of our Churches; it just remains to be seen if the details and obstacles can be worked out. Where there's a will, however, I'm certain that God will supply the Grace. What's been significantly lacking in previous times, IMO, is the recognition on both sides that schism deforms us all, and it seems that this realization is really sinking in for our hierarchs at this point in history.

I realize that you position may be different than mine, but I hope you can appreciate how heart-warming these developments are for someone of the Catholic persuasion.

Peace and God bless!

The EP can only bring about an act reconciliation by achieving inner unity in Orthodoxy first. I don't think he's doing that, which is sad and it is why I found the comments of Metropolitan John disappointing.

Inner unity in Eastern Orthodoxy would perhaps take a miracle greater than the reunion of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Communions. Maybe we should all be praying for THAT unity first, and focus on inter-Communion unity later?

Peace and God bless!

Considering the differences within Orthodoxy are not theological, I think you're quite mistaken in your assumption.

Even aside from that, when looking at your statement, the latter is not possible without the former anyway. I know I'm stating the obvious, but it should not be forgotten.

Both the Ecumenical Patriarch and Cardinal Kasper have agreed with Ghosty in recent months.

My statement was made in jest, hence the winky face, but it contains a kernal of truth and honesty. It's not a matter of theological difference with Eastern Orthodoxy, but of the very manner of being (I'll leave aside the question of whether or not there are really deep and serious theological differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and the Catholic Communion). Eastern Orthodoxy, for better or worse, has traditionally grown, developed, and established itself through inner schisms and hostilities. To take just one example, the Russian Orthodox Church would not be what it is today had there not been fierce and schismatic disputes between Moscow and Constantinople. Even today new Orthodox Churches form from schism and dispute in many cases. It's not a matter of concious identity, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that this approach to the Church runs deeply in many parts of the Eastern Orthodox Communion.

I'm not even intending this as a pot-shot at Eastern Orthodoxy; the Early Church that produced so many Saints had many of the same issues, and perhaps it's just the way things must work. In any case it's questionable whether an "ultra-montaine" approach is any better. I stand by my statement that it will take the Grace of God to fully unify Eastern Orthodoxy in the sense of removing such inner conflicts, however.


Of course, but I think one might easily follow on the other.

Peace and God bless!

Conversely I would say it would take the grace of God to unify many of the internal divisions in Catholicism, or in western Christendom in general (rent by probably the greatest schism to occur in the life of the church since Pentecost in the events surrounding the Reformation). I certainly acknowledge there are a plethora of shortcomings, divisions and outright deep problems in Orthodoxy; so I take no offense. Having just returned from a parish council meeting tonight I can tell you a room of 20 can provide all the division and angst one can take!

Being realistic about our own shortcomings is another way we must right our own ships, and through this dealing with our own shortcomings we prepare ourselves for communion with one another. Just as I would say confession and repentance prepares us for communion with God. It is the grace of God that is necessary to unify our own hearts.

Honestly, it can't. A unilateral move would be a disaster, and I use that would specifically. One must also appreciate the tenuous position of the Ecumenical Patriarch, and the thin level of support he has in a wide portion of the church as a whole.

The difference, of course, is that whatever disputes there may be within the Catholic Communion do not prevent the Catholic Communion from acting in a united way when it comes to reunion with other Churches. As for the Reformation, that's not viewed as a schism at all by the Catholic Church, and is definitely not internal. It's Western, but the Catholic Church doesn't define itself by "Western", but by "Catholic and Apostolic"; the Protestants don't fit that category, so they're not a consideration when it comes to internal difficulties in the Catholic Church.

Peace and God bless!

Let's not forget that most of the Protestants and their continuously subdividing offshoots deny the significance of both "Catholic" and "Apostolic" in their theology and their activities. Unity is not a big deal for them.

I guess I just see the world differently. Approach to reunion with anyone is based on internal consistency of beliefs. I know what the approach to unity with other bodies is in Orthodoxy because I know what beliefs it holds within itself. Whether its consistent in its communications is another story.

Our view of schism, and of each other, is of course predicated on our own vantage point and assumptions. You have your view and beliefs about the Orthodox church and its history which is completely understandable. I see western Christendom as a single entity that went in to a massive state of internal schism; and what emerged were bodies that continue to shape, influence and form each other - often through hostility, conflict and strife (as you see in the Orthodox world). The modern Papacy to me for instance exists as it does in large part as a response to this history of division in western Christendom and its conflicts both with the flocks and institutions it retained control of and those it lost - whether you look at Avignon, Frederick II, Constance, Luther or the rise of a politically independent Italian state, etc. This is my perception, as you have yours of my church.

And as is often quoted... it's hard to imagine much unity in the protestantism with over "33,000" independent "denominations" in the world.