www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Question to Byzantine Catholics

Why did Metropolitan Archbishop Basil Schott OFM, Bishop Andrew Pitaki, Bishop William Skurla, and Bishop John Kudrick accepte inclusive language on behalf of their church members in the RDL hymnal?

These are the names in the foreward (page 3) of the RDL hymnal, not any committee members listed earlier. The committee members were just functionaries to its adoption. Several of those members have died, one has quit his job, and one visits this forum often but failed to answer my questions. Since this was primarily an episcopal job, it would be fruitless to pursue answers with committee members.

The ones responsible are those who are ultimately responsible and who have the authority to go along with it. They are the ones whose names are given in the RDL hymnal.

So, why did they accept inclusive language and alter Holy Writ to suit such needs? How long will the clergy continue using it? My aunt states that her church is slowly ignoring it. She feels that someday the lack of enforcement in the parishes will collide with the wishes of their chief shepherds. Unless there is already talk about canning it. She heard a rumor (and it is only a rumor) that the RDL is on its last legs in some places. It only takes one bishop to dump it to get the dominoes going.

Ed

Ed why not write to them and ask?

Eparchy of Parma
1900 Carlton Rd.
Parma, OH 44134
Phone: (216) 741-8773
Fax: (216) 741-9356
Email: viscom@parma.org

Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
66 Riverview Avenue
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15214
Phone: 412-231-4000
Fax: 412-231-1697

Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Passaic
445 Lakawanna Avenue
West Paterson, New Jersey 07424
Phone: 973-890-7777
Fax: 973-890-7175

Ed,

It does not seem to me that any one bishop can do so. Its adoption, however ill- or well-advised, was within the prerogatives of the Council of Hierarchs, the governing authority of the Metropolia. Neither the eparchies nor the eparchs are individual entities in such matters, as the Metropolia is a functional entity comprised of its parts.

Many years

Hiding behind the group.


If they don't feel they have to answer Byzantine Catholics, membes of their own church, what makes you think they will answer me? Someone got what they wanted.

Ed

Good point. Many have written to Rome (including myself). But has anyone written to the bishops? And if you have, did you receive a response?

Hiding behind the group, a.k.a. "Groupthink", is a very bad way to do business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

I ask a humble question to those who dislike the currently promulgated liturgy. Rather than requesting the hierarchs to rescind, in its entirety, what is currently the approved liturgy. Has anyone tried to ask, or campaigned for changes to only the translations and/or rubrics which they believe are incorrect (with supporting reasons and suggested replacement)? Has it been considered that taking the proverbial �throwing the baby out with the bath water� approach or complaining about lack of enforcement of RDL could result in the removal of priests and the closing of parishes?

I wonder this because I have a feeling that history may indicate that when those in authority are continually pushed or criticized, their reactions might be even more severely consequential to those who would be agreeable to less radical changes. I�m curious if people feel there is an acceptable compromise position for the Metropolia considering how long, if ever, it would take for all faiths of the Rescension to agree on one common liturgical translation and practice.

I'm guessing that a compromise would be very questionable considering the enormous amounts of money that was spent on the new aqua books.

White elephants have a bigger say on what stays than pesky little mosquitos.
Ed

Really Ed, if that is what you are intent on charging them with... well the genius of it is that there really is no great way to refute or defend against it.

Are there any other churches to which you do not belong that you follow so closesly and opine so liberally about?

SS,

Would you like to take a stab on my topic in the first post? or do you want to continually make it an issue with me? As far as I know, others besides Byzantine Catholics can post here.

Ed

I agree with you Ed. It seems simple sinner is simply following your posts to argue and isn't offering any vaild commentary. I urge the admins to issue a warning since the flow of angst is across many threads.

I do not know the answer to the question but I offer instead some background that may highlight the dilemma.

The stumbling-block, in a sense, is the English translation that is the 1965 liturgicon, the "red book," and its relation to the Ruthenian Recension link [patronagechurch.com] promulgated in 1941 link [patronagechurch.com] . Here the comparison is the 1965 link [patronagechurch.com] and 2007 (RDL) link [patronagechurch.com] liturgicons to the Slavonic version of the Recension link [patronagechurch.com] and its "Ordo" English_1955 [patronagechurch.com] & Latin_1953 [patronagechurch.com] . The 1965 liturgicon is a usable, literal-without-being-stilted, complete (though in need of some improvements and corrections) translation of the 1941 Recension Slavonic text.

If one does as noted, i.e. removes from the RDL the rubrics that are not in the Recension, and abandons the controversial changes, then one essentially has the 1965 "red book" liturgicon but in an abbreviated form, and with some corrections that most everyone would find ok. The dilemma is then, why the effort to produce a corrected abbreviated liturgicon when the full version is all but in place and has been since 1965. The question then, having already the full, why an abridged liturgicon; is this progress?


There are those in authority who, as Jesus warns (Mk 10:42), "lord it over" others. For them, the unforgivable "sin" of those who oppose is not that the opposition is wrong but that it is right. As Jesus then says (Mk 10:43), "it shall not be so among you." In this, I firmly believe in the integrity of our bishops, that it is not so among us, and that integrity prevails.

You can't stop the train just because some folks can't or won't get on board, but you can do your best that the train stays on the tracks.

Dn. Anthony

Nah Matthew, that is asimple misperception. Look through Ed's post history and see how much I have "followed him". Out of the last 50 posts we have largely stayed out of each other's way, and as far as I can recall, I have NEVER weighed in on:

"Another Open Letter to Father David" "Open Question to Father David Petras" "Holy See Rejects Feminist "Baptism"" or "Feminism and the English Language" which make up the preponderence of Ed's contribution on ByzCath the last few weeks.

So no, you are not correct, it simply hasn't happened, and the appearance of it is only there for those that wish to see it or imply it.

Coincidentally, is your misplaced observation about me in this thread in any fashion related to our disagreement in another thread?

The plain truth of the matter is this largely is going to happen between two men with big personalities in a small forum. The traffic being what it is during this time, it is inevitable that if Ed and I participate in so much as half the threads that are active for a length of time, we will be running into each other.


Ed if you have been made to feel singled out, that is regretable and I apologize. You are of course as free to participate here as anyone else is - it is largely a function of following the rules to moderator satisfaction.

And to be clear I don't discount your opinions or questions.

What does cause me some irritation - and I admit I have probably handled this poorly - is the knowing certitude in some posts of your statements and opinions as being objectively clear to all.

Sometimes, as a a Byzantine Catholic my entire adult life, who has been to seminary and served on two pastoral councils, ehtusiastically visited about half our parishes and maintained close friendship with some of the clergy and a few seminarians, I simply don't come to the same conclusions, and I feel compelled to make that known.

It seems to me a modicum of humility on both our ends is warranted. I will make better effort to not have you feel singled out, in return perhaps some of your questions and observations could be softened or couched in terms of "It seems to me..." "Is it the case..." or likewise.

You want me to take a stab at the original post which seemed to serve a largely rhetorical function, I can only answer your original question by saying I can't answer your original questions:



I can't answer them for the simple fact that the first one you would have to ask the bishop - I don't use my real name, but will assure all here - lest their be any question - that I am neither of those three.

As to the second question, I am not clergy, so I can't tell you how long they will use them. My educated guess would be that as clergy in promises of obedience to their hierarchs, they will - if they be obedient - use them until told otherwise. Again, that is just my most educated guess on the matter - if they plan to do otherwise, you would have to ask one of their number directly. I can't talk for them.

So my best stab is my original reply post - you address a question to the bishops, you do just as well to write to them.

Simple Sinner,

I have a simple observation and really what the question for Byzantine Catholics should be and especially the leadership in it. If as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you) that you have visited half of our parishes and maintained close friendship with some of the clergy and a few seminarians, surely you must know that the state of the BCA is not favorable (and this applies to the UGCC as well). In most parishes attendance is down, vocations of the priesthood are down, how many nuns will there be in 25 years? I know that the rebuttal is that the diaconate has increases and so everything is ok Whether the RDL remains, the former is reinstated, or the correct (in my opinion) 1965 Liturgy and rubrics are used, the sinking ship still exists and must be remedied. I have asked time and time again what is the evangelization and outreach plan? Why was so much time and money spent on revising and not evangelizing? You live in Ohio and have traveled the parishes, how many priests are below 50 years old? There nothing wrong with foreign born clergy, but when Greek Catholic parishes here can't produce their own consistently, something is seriously wrong.

I know, the ad hominem argument will be that I haven't saved a church or produced an evangelization plan that has worked so there for I can't ask this question. Isn't this why we have leaders though? I can tell you this, people can get secularism in their lives virtually everywhere without even trying, whether on TV, movies, music, etc. What they can't get without seeking for it is undiluted traditionalism. But just providing undiluted traditionalism and then not telling anyone is absurd! On this subject I feel like the voice out in the wilderness (no I don't think that I'm St. John), I simply mean that it is a subject that isn't even up for discussion. (Yes, I've brought it up clergy and those in leadership in the past many times in many forms)

Father David believes for example that this is 'real evangelization' in this post:

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=249629#Post249629

His post is not logically flawed in using this label, simply because he chooses to use the label of 'evangelization' differently and thinks that it's happening (which I suppose under his definition is). Well, whatever one wants to call it, more people in the pews, especially children and more vocations have to have. I could care less what term Greek Catholics use for, it really needs to happen. In this post he talks about how getting more souls in the pews can happen and uses the early church as an example. All I can say is that the results are not happening and the last time I checked many Protestants, Mormons, etc. were bringing in people just fine and not using the techniques that his post talks about. Are there's the best, why not examine recruiting techniques out there and get people the correct and true theology of the Greek Catholic Church instead of what is being brought to them currently with other denominations and groups? I guess I am asking why not have a plan from our leadership?

I attended a Sunday talk where the assistant Director of Evangelization, Father Titko, said that evangelization is not going out and recruiting more people for church, but rather it is having the existing people in the pews rediscover their Faith. I have absolutely nothing against this concept, however, once again, we need families and vocations. A crisis exists.


These are just two example and they are not meant to single anyone out, however they are meant to show that the term 'evangelization' can't even be agreed upon. Couple that with the RDL and it makes the current situation sad.


Monomakh