www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Papal Priorites and Priviledges & the East

One must always remember that the agreements by which various Eastern Christians came into communion with Rome were bilateral agreements. Given the delicate and (necessarily) nuanced issues involved, it is hardly surprising that the two sides in these cases did not (and do not) always share a common understanding on certain points.

As if that were not enough to complicate matters, one must also remember that in almost every case, the Eastern Church entering into communion with Rome was doing so in response to a perceived need, and a situation which at the time seemed otherwise without any possible solution. To take an obvious example, by the end of the sixteenth century, the Church of Kyiv was in such a situation: the Patriarchate of Constantinople was in no condition to do much; the combination of the hostility of Russia and the demands of Poland threatened the very life of the Church of Kyiv. There was a memory of the Union of Florence, and an awareness that the Florentine Union only collapsed because of the Fall of Constantinople to the Turks. Hence it seemed worthwhile to try Rome.

And so on.

Fr. Serge

I respect your openness and will not criticize your POV that likely will not find favor among your fellow catholics (and this is understandable). But, I would like to point out, to be fair, that much credit for the fall of communism is due to your former beloved Pope, and while prehaps not done with the Orthodox of Russia in the forefront of his mind, I imagine that they weren't from from it when he was working to free his enslaved Catholic brethern of Poland.

Others may have already pointed this out, so I apologize if I am beating a dead horse in bring this up, but I am responding as I read in this thread.

Thanks for you participation.

God bless,

Xpy

Apotheum and Serge,

Thank you very much for you thoughts. They are interesting points (that the Byzcath situation of today is not necessarily a blueprint for any possible union with Rome.). I actually did not bring it up with the concern of how this affects us (Orthodox) in mind, but rather I was honeslty jsut curious about the state of the current union that already existed between Rome and Eastern Catholicism. However, they are still points that are interesting to think about and consider. Thanks.

GOd bless,

Xpy

"much"???

I'd rank the Polish Pope as the single most important factor. Without the popular polish pontiff, Solidarity--the first domino--would have been crushed, and might have been just another Prague Spring.

I have no serious doubts that the communism would have collapsed under its own weight anyway (the process was already beginning), but it would have been a decade (or even three or four) down the road. It also might have come with significant violence or invasions for foodstuffs.

Attempting to match the Reagan/Thatcher arms buildup delivered a body blow to the Soviet economy, but it was John Paul II that was able to protect the first successful uprising, leading to others breaking their shackles, and then others, and . . .

This is *not* to understate the effect of the Russian soldiers being no longer willing to shoot their countrymen during Yeltsin's defiance, or the fact of the Orthodox and other churches surviving *at all* in that environment.

hawk

I said 'current Pope'.

I share your love and your admiration for what the humility of John Paul II accomplished. I do pray that .. that spirit comes again to Rome and the current Pope does not try to capitalize (take advantage) on what his predecessor did.

-ray

I am old enuff to remember a news cast. The President of Poland (Communist puppet) had threatened to crush the uprising. John Paul sent a message that if the Polish people needed him he would resign as Pope and fly home to Poland as a normal priest.

A date was set for a meeting and John Paul fly to Poland and we met at the airport by the President. In the film .. the President was standing there and as soon as John Paul emerged from the crowd and began to walk towards the President .. the Presidents knees began to shake! Right there on world news his knees were literally knocking together!! and John Paul so composed as only true humility can.

I will see if I can find that clip on the internet. It was really something!

-ray

Primer General Jaruzelski ... that was his name (the Communist Primer of Poland). His knees shook like jelly right on the world news clip.


In the post above I mistyped "was met" as "we met" I was not there

-ray

Ray,

I know your heart is in the right place, but please...speak for yourself.

How can dogmas be "reformed" anyway? I'd like to know what that involves...

Alexis

C. I. X.

You got it yet missed it. It is exposure. It is public perception. That was the �virtue� of both the R C Pope and U S President, they knew how to play. The USSR became a chess game of public opinion, fear. They were not intimidated as were their predecessors. Unfortunately not everything is black or white, most are �mysteries�. They knew how to play when the others on the board backed them as a team, and so the "Evil Empire" fell. Kind of like a 1st millennium Vatican - Byzantine cooperation at its best.

Dear Alexis ...

>but please...speak for yourself.



I did.



-ray

I think see your point.

History had laid the table and it was ready to fall ... it only needed a couple of men who had no fear.

-ray

What/when is considered the origin of the "patriarchal institution"?

Dn. Anthony

As an EO with an unashamed bias towards what he first posted (re: Rome in regards to the East), I can tell you that it was plainly clear that he was only speaking for himself.

Xpy

I'm guessing the Ecumenical Councils that laid out the 5 most important Sees in order of importance. I forget which council that was, but my guess is that that was the origin of an explicit Patriachal Institution (although I would argue that it was there before such was decreed via Council).

But I could be wrong or misunderstanding the question.