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Divided in Ravenna, Russian and Estonian Orthodox to talk

Bartholomew I is promoting a meeting between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Church of Estonia. Last October the Russians quit the Ravenna meeting because of the presence of Estonian representatives. In concluding the prayer for Christian unity, the ecumenical patriarch expressed his desire to see the process of unification speed up, stressing how �historical� was the joint declaration made by Catholics and Orthodox in Ravenna. He also talks about spreading the Gospel in Hong Kong.

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The Baltic states moved quickly to prevent the ROC from renaming itself within those three countries and thus attempt to disguise its "Russian" character (unlike in Ukraine).

It is simply a natural process for the Orthodox Churches in the Baltics and Ukraine and elsewhere to want autocephaly, free of Moscow's grip (as did Georgia's Orthodox Church).

Why is that so difficult to achieve? And why is canonicity being used by the MP as a "whip" to try and keep its grip on these Churches?

Alex

I will keep these talks in my prayers. Hopefully they'll be able to resolve some of their issues.

God bless and keep you....

His All Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew can promote all he wants. What occurs in the internal affairs of the Russian Orthodox Church is no concern of his. His "promotions" in the past have caused the very problem he now sees fit to correct.

Alexandr

Is not Patriarch Alexei Estonian?

Ung

The father of the present Patriarch Alexis II of Moscow was a Priest of the Esthonian Apostolic Orthodox Church (Ecumenical Patriarchate). The present Patriarch of Moscow himself was baptized by a priest of the Esthonian Apostolic Orthodox Church.

If the Estonian Church and the Russian Church are going to speak with one another, one wonders what language they will use!

Fr. Serge

Interesting question regarding the language issue. Will they use the language of colonialism: Russian? I know one complaint of the Estonians is that the Russian settlers who have come in since WW2 have not learned Estonian.
It seems as if the Estonian Orthodox Church has been under the EC twice: in the inter-war period and now since the fall of communism.
What happened to the father of the present Patriarch of Moscow when the Estonian Orthodox Church was annexed by the MP after WW2. Was he accepted as a priest in the MP? Re-ordained?

I doubt very much that the MP re-ordained ANY cleric coming from the Estonian Orthodox Church,since the latter was a depancy of Constantinople.I fully agree that anyone living in a given country should learn the local language.

Soory,didn't proofread my post,I meant to say that the Orthodox Church in Estonia was a dependancy of Constantinople.

Unfortunately, there is a LARGE political dimension to the preoblems between Russia and Estonia, MP and Estonian Church, as well as these talks!
The Russians are absolutely furious that the Estonians are tearing down any monuments in Estonia that are in commemoration of anything Soviet . . . one was some memorial of the Great Patriotic War (known to the rest of us as WWII), which caused the Russians to declare thatthe Estonians were all "Nazis" and "Hitlerites," and that they are "glorifying Naziism."
The Estonians have charged in the last year or so that the Moscow Patriarchate has been using its churches in Estonia for "espionage" by FSB agents (the "new" Russian heirs of the KGB). Which, of course, is not a charge never heard before . . . nor a charge never proven before (not particularly in Estonia, but in several different countries...)
The MP DOES use "canonicity" as a whip to basically go anywhere it wants, and do whatever it wants . . . but, if the MP cannot understand why the Estonians, who see the Russians as "those people" who imprisoned, tortured, and exceuted them for 50 years, and then settled untold thousands of Russians in their country against their will, and subsequently want them OUT of thier country now, lock, stock, and (especially!) barrel-well, then, they need a lesson in understanding.
Of course, and this is also a sore point anywhere you ask-the Patriarchate of Constantinople's "understanding" of where it can extend its jurisdiction is one of very very very recent vintage, and one that no Orthodox Patriarch, Hierarch, Theologian, Canonist, etc., has EVER even thought of in their wildest dreams, much less endorsed! This goes for adherents of the Patriarchate of Constantinople itself! As the Patriarchate of Constantinople is in NO WAY, nor ever will be, some sort of Orthodox Pope, these far fetched jurisdictional desires will never, ever be realized!
It is my understanding that Constantinople's "story" about its position within the Orthodox Church is one reason that there is so much misunderstanding among the Vatican and the other Orthodox Churches concerning any "union"-the Russian Orthodox Church, for one, is not ready for any part of any union with Rome-most Russian Orthodox believe that the only union with Rome can come when Rome gives up its heresies and becomes Orthodox! Which belief finds sympathy among the faithful of many other Orthodox Churches . . . simply because Constantinople voices its positions does not mean any other Orthodox Churches agree . . . or will be willing to go along.
Hopefully, the problems in Estonia can be rectified, but, it will probably be a hard row to hoe. . . and, while I am Russian Orthodox, Estonia belonogs to the Estonians-hopefully the solution can be one the Estonians can live with comfortably. Not necessarily the MP, and certainly not the EP . . . who does not have much valid reason to be involved.

C. I. X.

A Sombra,

It didn�t occur to me that the second Rome wanted a papacy but rather the third. Do you think Estonia is to Moscow the war or just a battle in its war for Ukraine?

Mykhayl wrote:
"It didn�t occur to me that the second Rome wanted a papacy but rather the third."

Where have you been? The Patriarchate of Constantinople has practically made a career of interfering with the Russian Orthodox Church for the entire 20th century, and now is trying to extend that career into the 21st!
When the Church of Russia was experiencing the very first attacks at the hands of the bolsheviks, the Patriarchate of Constantinople exhorted the saintly Patriarch Tikhon to abandon the Patriarchate, and "recognized" the political hacks and mercenaries who manned the heretical "Living Church" for the bolsheviks and their meager flocks as comprising the "Church of Russia;" again, while the Church of Russia was experiencing persecution, while its Bishops, clergy, and laity were being slaughtered, the Patriarchate of Constantinople found it expedient to detach two of the Dioceses of the Russian Church-Finland and Poland. Next, Constantinople also extended jurisdiction over the North American Diocese of the Russian Church. From the 1930's on, Constantinople interfered with Ukrainian part of the Russian Church-extending its jurisdiction over Ukrainians in the diaspora-most notably, the United States and Canada. Constantinople then did the same with the Byleorussian part of the Russian Church-again in the United States. Until today, when Constantinople interferes in Estonia, and is sorely tempted to enter into the fray in Ukraine.
Also, Constantinople caused many troubles and sorrows in the Orthodox Church in the 20th century, with its so-called "Pan Orthodox Congress," called by an uncanonically elected "Patriarch"-Meletios Metxakis, and the unlawful adoption of the "New" Calendar.
When the North American Metropolia finally wished to rectify its uncanonical position of self declared independence in the late 1960's, the Metropolia firstapproached Patriarch Athenagoras, who told them-"You are Russians-go to your Mother Church." They did, and then Constantinople would not recognize what the Metropolia's "Mother Church" did for them-granted them autocephaly. Why? Because Constantinople claimed that no autocephaly was valid unless THEY procliamed it. The Russian Church had been autocephalous for over 500 years-this means they were ON THEIR OWN-they had no one over them, no "superiors." So, if the Russian Church grants an autocpehaly-how can Constantinople beg to differ because they had nothing to do with it?
Constantinople also wasted no time in instituting their "Russian Exarchate of Western Europe"-which was basically nothing more than accepting the suspended and defrocked Bishops and clergy of another Church; also, the recent acceptance of Bishop Basil of the Russian Diocese of Sourozh without a canonical release...now-what was that again? You thought WHO wanted a Papacy?
Constantinople also refuses to recognize Russian jurisdiction in Japan and China, both places, like North America, where the Russian Church was organized and settled LONG before Constantinople had any presence. Which has always been the rule for jurisdcrion to be established in non-Orthodox lands by the Orthodox Church-whoever was there "first." And, no, I'm sorry, not first with a mythical church in St Augustine that disappeared not long after it began, but, "first" as in missions, churches, parishes, monasteries, dioceses...etc.
Constantinople also interfered with the Czechoslovakian Dioceses set up by the Serbian Church-consecrating a Bishop for the same region as Bishop Gorazd (Pavlik) consecrated by the Serbs. Bishop Gorazd was glorified as a New Martyr by the Church of Czechoslovakia-the Constantinopolitan "Czech Church" having gone the way of the dinosaurs.
Constantinople interfered with non-Greeks who wanted to become monks on the Hoy Mountain, at different times banning Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians, and Romanians from coming to Mt Athos. In violation, it might be added, of the Charter of Mount Athos, as well as Greek laws concerning Mt Athos.
Constantinople, again under the auspices of Meletios Metaxakis, began the Orthodox involvement in ecumenism that has caused much trouble for the Holy Church in the 20th century. In fact, the entire incident with the adoption of the New Calendar was primarily for ecumenical purposes-so that the Orthodox could "celebrate" with the Western Christians. And, cooperation had its rewards! While Constantinople resisted autocephaly and a Patriarchate for Bulgaria for years and years, Romania was awarded its Patriarchate and autocephalous status for its quick adoption of the New Calendar!
When Patriarch Diodoros of Jerusalem made noises against ecumenism, Constantinople interfered with Jerusalem's parishes in Australia-which prior to this affront were seemingly "A-OK." The current mess in Jerusalem between the former Patirarch Irenaios and the new Patriarch Theophilos was scripted from Constantinople and Greece-Irenaios somehow losing favor and being thrown out!
So, you cant say that the second Rome has not tried its best to make its "Primacy of Honor" a "Primacy of Rule."
Moscow basically wants no interference on what it considers its turf. Period. But you dont see Moscow negotiating with the Greek Archdiocese of North and South America and the Atlantic and Pacific to come under its jurisdiction.
I believe Moscow already sees the Ukraine "battle" as being over with and won-the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate is byf ar the largest Orthodox Church in Ukraine-and by many measures, the ONLY Orthodox Church in Ukraine, as the various Ukrainian Autocephalous churches have a lot of ... problems. Their Bishops are not valid, for one-(A bunch of priests "laying on hands," or a dead bisho having his dead hand "laid on" someone does not a Bishop make!) and their Orthodoxy is at the very least suspect, as they all stem more from the renovationist "Living Church" than they do from the Russian Orthodox Church.
Other than "guarding its own turf," Moscow has not yet attempted to extend its jurisdiction over areas where it has no business doing so.
Well you would never believe I am using the "Quick Reply" feature, would you?
We will see what happens in Estonia-if Constantinople goes into Ukraine, they will be causing more than "church trouble," I am afraid!

C. I. X.

A Sombra:
" Moscow has not yet attempted to extend its jurisdiction over areas where it has no business doing so. [Quote]

Moscow usurped the missions of the Apostles Andrew, Cyril, Methodius, O�ilha and Volodymyr from Kyiv. While Kyiv was inclusive because the Roman Catholic neighbors were receptive in joining the Orthodox against real heretical invaders as Islam, an Orthodox neighbors preferred to be exclusive allowed their heretical friends to enslave the rest of Christendom. It was Russia who sacked its mother Kyiv in 1169 and again in 1203 showing Venice the advantages for the sacking of Constantinople in 1204. This left Kyiv for the deathblow of invading infidels and heretics. The Mongol Khan boasted �I will tie Kyiv to the back end of my horse� after which he gave Alexander Nevsky the title Grand Prince of Kyiv. Nevsky expelled the Knights Templar and rejected treaties with European Christendom preferring to fraternize with the Mongols who he paid tribute for friendship.

The more things change the more they remain the same. Ukraine today is a free nation but it�s �canonical� church is under the heel of a double headed foreigner, Moscow who advocates a chauvinistic dependency. Its Patriarch counts the size of its church by real-estate not souls. Ukraine�s national sister churches demand their thousand year old Orthodox legacy in the form of an independent Kyivan Patriarchate, and instead was declared by the third Rome uncanonical and heretical. Ukraine's elected president invited the second Rome for asistance. From among the world Orthodox Patriarchs� letters to the first Rome protesting the possibility of the Pope recognition of a Kyivan Patriarch only the one from Poland deviated from their unsubstantiated rhetoric. History does repeat. Do we believe God sees only in black on white, platitudes not motives? Who prays for the 10 million Ukrainian victims who perished under the genocidal terror by famine Moscow orchestrated in 1933-4? Who is missioning today to those left unchurched from the time of the catacomb church under the Soviet persecution? So again whose turf is the Ukrainian Republic?

Jesus said �Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you; and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you�. (Matt 5:44) �May the Lord bless and keep the Tsar� far away from us�. (Sholem Aleichem / Sholem Rabinovich of Poltava)