www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?

You will note that in recent years, in many places the Liturgical changes have discouraged people.

And in many dioceses, the Bishop are closing parishes and schools permantently.

Maybe we are seeing His second thoughts applied?

Greetings to all ...Blessed Holy Week to all celebrating it now or in the near future...
The BeeGee's ( a sixties-seventies era musical group ) had a song that said: "it's only words, and words are all I have..." I thought of that after reading the past pages. WE ( Catholic, Orthodox, East or West ) study, read, try to explain, argue, and pray -- all trying to explain ourselves to eachother. (I can't quote the verse like some of my Protestant friends, but) Jesus told us "In My Father's House there are many mansions..." Basically, we are all pilgrims on this earth, all traveling to our "mansions." Someone told me once: "that's why they say we practice our religion -- we're all trying to get it right." (or, if you can stand the pun: "rite" ) May we all continue to "practice" and pray for eachother! Happy Easter!
Andy

Yes, a Blessed Pascha to all!

You have captured my sentiments exactly. We need to learn more about ourselves and each other for greater understanding!

God Bless,
R.

A blessed Good Friday to my Romano-Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ.

I wish you all a Blessed and Bright Holy Pascha.

Christ is Risen!

Christ is beyond our poor logics. The Holy Romano-Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ. The Holy Orthodox Church is the True Church of Christ.

We were given a Holy Baptism. At a certain time Christ will look into our eyes.

What will He see? I would appreciate an answer, is not a rhetoric question.

m+

I think he will see true believing Christians!

JOHN:

I wasn't referring to the liturgical or any other formal things when I wondered if the Good Lord had had second thoughts. It was a tongue-in-cheek wonder about just having us broken humans in the Body of Christ to begin with.

I liken people to a bunch of kindergarteners with their crayons altering a perfectly drawn blueprint or a one-of-a-kind work of art. We tend to mess up whatever we touch and whatever we're involved in. I heard a good one the other day about Christians--get two together and you have three opinions to fight about.

BOB

Thank you Marian.

May the Risen Christ continue to bless your Holy Orthodox Church.

When Christ looks into our eyes .. may be see "love one another" fulfilled in us! May he see a clean conscience. May he see us as having turned to be like children. May he see us as not having thought ourselves better than our brothers.

And most of all - when He looks into our eyes - I pray that he see Himself.

I trust that your physical condition has improved and you will soon be able to return to the monastery.

Peace to all who have faith in Christ.
-ray

You, Father Anthony, and all of the moderators .. you all have my admiration for the tone and wise guidance in which you keep this forum. May it always remain as unique as it has been.

-ray

Well said, Marian, well said.

What He will see is what He already sees-- the truth of our lives.

The real question is whether we will see the truth of our lives, in the light of Christ, before the Day of Judgement, while there is still time for us to have a change of heart.

-- John

I expect that in His time, the Spirit will begin whacking Great Patriarchs upside the head . . . and that many of them will be called to answer for their lack of effort to heal the division.

hawk, still daydreaming about locking the five of them in conclave until they figure out how to celebrate the Eucharist together

Tip Toe Through the Semantic Mine Fields.

The subject (as written) is a capital "T" for the words 'True Church'.

>Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?

Notice the capital "T" inside a sentence usually indicate a noun (in this case a title).

Titles can mean whatever the inventor intended for it to mean and is not necessarily tied to the common understanding of the word. One has to look to the author (inventor) of the title to determine what the intended meaning of the title is.

So it is fair to assume, at this point, that the title 'True Church' is not the same as the common meaning of 'true church' which would have the meaning of ... 'genuine church'.

In this light the title True Church is very much like the word 'orthodox' (right belief) when used in the title 'Orthodox Church'. Both these titles express a subjective belief. In other words "I believe my church is orthodox' .. and .. 'I belief my church is true' ... are theological statements ... subjective.

Some of us have been looking for the answer to the question ... is the Eastern Orthodox church a part of the genuine and original church (the church that Christ founded) ... while others have been debating if the Eastern Orthodox church is part of the 'True Church' (a theological belief which depends upon which theology one is answering from).

If we ask "Is the Eastern Orthodox Church part of the true Church?" ... genuine, original, and historically proven to have been founded by the one (or more) apostles of Christ ... the answer must be 'Yes'.

The historical record is that Christ appointed the apostles ... and in turn the apostles founded churches (multiple) and appointed successors. This is the very office and authority of an apostle (founding churches and management of these churches).

I would submit that the answer which any of us should really care about would be ... if the Eastern Orthodox Church - is actually a part of the group of churches which Jesus Christ founded through his apostles .. and the historically proven and undeniable answer to that question is .. "yes".

Peace to all churches.
-ray

I am reminded this morming of Our Lord's words about himself in John's Revlation..

I am the alpha and omega (Providence from the beginning to the end) and I walk amoung the churches.

Not just - one - but all of his churches.

I am also remined of the 12 apostles of whom we can rightly say, as founders of the churchehs, they represent the churches. And tho they all had faults, not one of them was banned from being an apostle. Not even Judas. Judas left the church on his own and founded no church.

And so I think this question was answered for us by 'the big guy' 2000 years ago. W# should be very cautious of semantics and invented terms which change this simplicity into another answer which is diametrically opposed to the orginal answer. Let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no' and be very cautious of any answer which takes the long road around to be something other than what it orginally was and sets itself in opposition to the simple gospel even as it claims to be a better understanding of the gospel.


It is significant in Revelation that when Jesus is talking to the churches (letters to the churches) if he has something against a particular church - he did not say "Return to your first docteines" but rather "Return to your first LOVE." as if it was a f aulure to-love that gives rise to the diffrences in doctrine. Jesus names the disease ... and does not confuse the syptom (differing doctrines) with the cause (failure to love one another).

Peace to all churches.
-ray

hawk:

It might be more than five if we get the Oriental Orthodox Patriarchs together--Copts, Armenians, Syrians, those from India, the Church of the East, etc.

An interesting point, though. I wonder if they could use the same procedure used for Papal conclaves: get them all together, bolt the door, seal with wax, and tell them it's either an agreement or their permanent home. Then what happened in one conclave in history could be applied--when somewhere around two years had passed, the people tore the roof off in winter to force their hand.

Part of the problem though, is that many patriarchs have no final authority to do anything alone without consulting their synods. It might take locking all the sitting bishops in a stadium . . .

BOB

I have a question. Is "in communion with" equivalent to "being a member of" in Catholic theology? If it is, then it would seem that from the point of view of Catholic theology, all baptized Christians are members of the true Church of Christ, but many simpy have an "imperfect" membership.

Joe