www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Is Eastern Orthodoxy a Part of the True Church?

Also, I want to point out that this issue points out a fundamental difference in the way that Catholics and Orthodox usually do ecclesiology. It would seem that the teaching of Vatican II, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI, begins with the notion of the universal church of which individuals and invidual churches are members. In Orthodox ecclesiology, it is now common to think of the fullness of the Church, it's universality, being manifest in every local Church. So it is possible for an Orthodox to say that the True Church of Christ is found at any Eucharist celebrated with Orthodox faith and practice. As far as I can tell, there are no degrees of membership in Orthodox ecclesiology. A local Church is simply the Church or, in the case of defective faith and practice, it isn't. Yet, the carefully nuanced statements of the Catholic Church seems to allow for a continuum along the line of "true Churchness" so to speak. I suppose that this is something that the members of the theological commissions would want to clarify.

Joe

It's good to see you back, Joe ! Another thoughtful post, and I thank you.

-- John

Ray,

Excellent point!

I have often reflected on this in regard to Mt.16:5-12, in which Our Lord gives his Apostles the famous admonition, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees!" In verse 12, the Apostles come to realize that Jesus is speaking about the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees--but just what is that doctrine?

I would answer that it is an understanding of the Law that fails to subordinate every part of that Law to the Great Commandment: "ye shall love the LORD your God with your whole heart, with your whole soul, with your whole mind and with your whole strength, and ye shall love your neighbor as yourself!" Without that "why" (or logos) behind it, any law can be interpreted in a way that is different from--or even contrary to--its intended purpose ("letter" vs. "spirit").

With this in mind, we can begin to look at our doctrinal differences from their true perspective!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Joe:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!!

I think not. Not all the baptized are invited to be "in communion with" as attested by the instructions found in our worship aids. There are various categories after one is baptized and they determine if one might be eligible to receive the Holy Mysteries. The Reformation communities are generally not invited to participate because their beliefs about the Eucharist are not the same, while the Christians of the Apostolic Churches are generally extended an invitation if they are in pastorla need.

I think the analogy might be that of a house. All the baptized make it onto the porch. Those of the Apostolic Churches make it through the front door and into the foyer; they may be admitted to the dining room. Catholics in communion with Rome pass right on through without being challenged.

In Christ,

BOB

Music to my ears.

>With this in mind, we can begin to look at our
>doctrinal differences from their true perspective!

At the moment of death they will all blow away like dust. When we face God at that time .. we will not remember even one. He will not question us on them. They will make no difference.

If doctrines feed our ego .. individually or collective ego .. what good are they?

If doctrines are a tool for unity and love as in friendship - we have used them well.

Please Deacon Richard .. carry on with your thoughts... I swear .. I will be quiet.

-ray

Love can never be separated from truth, and of its very nature that includes doctrinal truth.

I agree this. As Orthodox, sincerely, I believe with all my soul that the Holy Orthodox Church has the fullnesses of truth, and is the true Church, who kept intact the truth and the dogmas of all the ecumenical synods.

Saying this, I do not say something against the Holy Romano-Catholic Church, here is included also the Holy Byzantine-Catholic Church, obedient to the Father Pope.

I think that the Western world is very secular. I see this best at Roma. I think that the RCC must be much more conservative regarding the Evangelic life and the teachings/dogmas of the first ecumenical councils (common synods).

Otherwise it is possible that all become some warmish. Nor cold nor warm.

I felt this difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism at Roma. Very different styles. Different living.

There are two places at Vatican where I felt well. In the great Basilica of St. Peter, on the right part there is La Pieta of Michelangelo. Absolutely beautiful. But not enough. For me it is far from the icon of Glykophiloussa, who is Divine and so philokalic.

But a little further there are two chapels. First it is the chapel of the Holy Sacraments. I loved that little space, where more souls JUST pray, no left, no right. Eyes on Christ.

After this chapel, further, it is the chapel of the Penitence. I love this place.

We all are on the path to the Kingdom of God, right? In this chapel, open space, I saw a young woman, knelt on that typical Catholic bench, I hope you understand. This young woman was crying with many sighs, having her hands crossed over her chest. She was dressed like a secular common woman. I was touched by her cry, rather mute. Large sighs and her tears were just flowing on her face.

I remained impressed in my soul. We all need to repent truly and change our minds. This metanoia is a rara avis and we need to look for Christ, in the particular path of our Church.

Is the most important to have true love and to put our soul for our brother or sister in need.

Christ is Risen!

m+

I don't think that either Ray or I was affirming anything to the contrary here.

The key is that doctrines expressed by different people at different times will necessarily use different words. Charity, however, has the wisdom to know what the words really mean, even if on the surface they appear to be in conflict. This is because the Truth is one, and the Truth is a person--may He be praised forever!

The Pharisees knew every word of the OT, and those words were certainly true. Yet they perceived Jesus' words to be in conflict with the doctrine of Moses and the Prophets because they were ignorant of the meaning behind that doctrine.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

My soul agrees entirely, Father Deacon Richard.

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amin!

Yes, the Truth is a person, and this person revealed certain things about Himself, and we call these things "doctrines." That said, anything that leads to theological indifferentism is unacceptable.

As far as the actual topic of this thread is concerned: I do not believe that the Eastern Orthodox Churches are simply a "part" of the true Church; instead, they (and the various Catholic Churches in communion with Rome) are the whole Church, because Christ is fully present wherever the Eucharist is validly celebrated.

For the sake of clarity I am posting below a comment that I originally made at the Catholic Answers Forum, which sadly was deleted � along with the entire thread � yesterday:

Taken from a CAF thread entitled: "Do Eastern Catholics need to be taught Latin theology?"

Doesn't ANYONE get tired of discussing this SAME topic over and over again? Please enough already!

No, I don't get tired of it.

Of course those who are tired of this topic are not required to read this thread, or any other thread for that matter.

Were you referring to the essence of the topic, or the energies of the topic?

CAF has just restored the thread entitled "Do Eastern Catholics need to be taught Latin theology?" -- to read it click the link below:

Do Eastern Catholics need to be taught Latin Theology? [forums.catholic.com]