www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News In Kosovo, Orthodox Churches burning

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=312192004

See the story from b92 [b92.net] . Read at least the first two pages of headlines.

For an interesting twist on the news read boston globe [news.bostonherald.com] . I really find it odd that they don't mention the burning churches and the Serbian Orthodox Church's attempts to protect the Mosque in Belgrade.

I have heard that some of the monasteries were shelled by mortar, although I haven't seen that verified (like anyone cares enough to look).

From B92, an eerie report.
From Patriarch Pavle

I'm not surprised by the Globe story and any omissions they'd make about burning churches. I feel profoundly sad for the innocent people who get stuck in the middle of civil unrest and war and terrorism - for what it does to them, and to their families, and to their national and cultural treasures.

News for the Serbian Orthodox Partiarchate


http://www.spc.yu/Vesti-2004/03/17-3-04_e4.html

Actually, several of the mosques in Belgrade went up in flames last night. Watch the BBC and you'll see the Serbs dancing with joy as the mosques that last the entire war went up in flames....

it's so sad...

mark

Don't worry, Medved. NATO would bomb Belgrade again if they felt the Muslims were threatened.

I know I'm going to get flamed for that, but my point is that the "world community" lets Albanians burn church after church and monastery after monastery, but one night of attacks on mosques and it makes BBC and you can see the silly barbaric Serbs dancing. Serbien muss sterbien. Right?

I put in the quote by Patriarch Pavle. The Metropolitan put himself between the protestors and one of the Belgrade mosques. To be honest, I'm not worried about the mosques. They have NATO protection. How many churches have to burn before IT makes the news?

Well, the reason why these guys won't do anything is because Serbs are Apostolic Christians. When it's about Muslims or Protestant sectarians they'll shout and cry and claim for their human rights thing and so on.

It's more than obvious that the Muslims and the Hindus and all these false religions are bitterly anti-christian. Their leaders pose in the pictures with the Pope or any Orthodox hierarch and then go back to the mosques where they blaspheme and preach hate against us. The Protestants are just a little bit better than them but not too much.

The sad thing is that unlike the Saudis or the Persians, the Kosovars were just Muslim by name. Apostolic Christianity (in this case the Roman Church to which Kosovar Albanian Christians belong) failed as they could not bring the people back to the Christian Church.

Dear Friends,

With apologies to our American friends, but what is happening to the Serbian Orthodox Church and people is entirely the fault of the USA.

The USA bombed Christian churches there in defense of the same faith whose extremists are now giving the USA one big headache in Iraq, Afghanistan and all over.

As some have told me, there is a belief that it is God Who is punishing America now, and beginning with 9-11.

What do you think?

Alex

Alex,

Two years ago I would have been furious at you.

That was two years ago.

I don't think it is God's punishment, but a natural development and consequence of sin. Like when I tell my son not to touch the stove and he does anyway and gets burned. The US was too supportive of the Mujahidin in Afghanistan during the '80s. The Serbs told the world there were foreign soldiers in Bosnia fighting and training in the '90s. No one would listen. Now we have well-trained terrorists roaming the world, not because we didn't intervene, but because we intervened in a way that supported evil people.

And I'm not so certain the bombing was entirely the fault of the US. The Germans were thrilled to send troops and the US had the support of a lot of other European nations. People tend to see a bifurcated world, and reality is very different.

Like saying traditional Christians are either Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox. It's just not that simple.

BTW, I was not supportive of the bombing under Clinton, but I wasn't against it either. I also didn't oppose President Bush the elder's positions on Yugoslavia. I was in a position to come to educate myself and didn't. In that way, I am guilty in not holding my own government responsible when, to a small degree, it was in my power.

I see it like Iraq. Should we have invaded? Well, at this point that's water under the bridge and perhaps the best outcome is now impossible. Now we have to try to do the right thing, and that will cost us in money and lives, but that's the path that was chosen.

I hope our government, the media and our people wake up and start doing the right thing in Kosovo.

Dear Cizinec,

Well, there are a lot of Orthodox Christians who DO think the US is receiving a kind of Divine retribution.

(One fellow stops me regularly when I see him on the street to show me all the natural disasters befalling the US as indication of this too! ).

One problem that is a perennial one with our American brothers is that you guys just have a bad understanding of foreign policy due to your seeming inability to understand cultures other than your own.

You seem to think that in every human being in the world there is a latent American trying to get out - if only his or her political/economic environmant approximated North America's.

Not every culture or nation wants your brand of democracy.

There are political cultures that would prefer a strong, centralized, autocratic head of state - and that is their prerogative.

As for the Germans etc., it was the USA that spearheaded the coalition back then - many of your friends feel the compulsion to join with you in your international ventures due to economic pressures and/or promises.

No, the fault lies squarely with the USA, unfortunately.

Your government acts on poor intelligence that is poor because it is devoid of international cultural understanding - and I don't mean weapons of mass destruction.

Then you cheer-lead countries into joining you that believe the US knows what it's doing.

But they'll leave you at the first sign of serious trouble - ie. Spain.

But the tragedy of the Serbian Orthodox Church and people is one that your government has perpetuated. The U.N. acts on your orders and is part and parcel of that perpetuation.

Your troops looked on as Serbian religious/cultural monuments are destroyed and didn't intervene.

You wouldn't have done that to the former Nazi Germany.

And ultimately the West as a whole is paying the price for US botched foreign policy.

Your army and those of the West are pathetically ill-equipped to deal with modern terrorism - bombs and overt atomic strength is weak indeed to deal with these.

You said you wouldn't fight a conventional war against terrorism - but that is all you have ever done since 9-11.

Your nation actually trains the people who are to become your future enemies.

And I hope that Donald Trump's corporate "You're Fired" world isn't universal for American society.

If it is, you and we are in deep do-do indeed.

Alex

Dosnt it seem a little strange to anyone anytime the U.N. forces are "in-country" they are best at evacuating homes, monasteries, etc.(aka allowing the terrorists to fill this vacuum and raise these buildings) instead of their charter to protect and defend the rights of the minorities??? The Serbians in this case are a very small minority. Even prior to the war were still a minority in Kosovo, but have had an 800 year history there.
I have believed for some time that the U.N. forces KFOR are nothing but toothless and clawless tigers when it comes to protecting Christians of any stripe. They just sort of go these places and hang out.
Maybe Im being overly critical but we Christians certainly do take it on the chin way too many times for my liking.
JoeS

We understand our own culture? I wish.

That feeling is so strong that it is almost a religion. Many Americans suspect, or outright believe, that everyone in the world wants to come here because of our lifestyle and government. What they don't understand is that they come here to escape persecution and try to make a living. They also don't understand that immigrants go to Germany, France, Italy, Canada, Poland, etc.

My country has done and is doing some fantastic things. That doesn't excuse the bad we've done.

I do disagree that Europe was totally helpless with regard to Yugoslavia. Fischer was way too active in the anti-Serb propaganda campaign and the French were happy to spread impossible or unverified events as fact to its people. While our government is full of hawks (regardless of political parties - or party: the Republocrats), the Germans have a hawkish wing that is growing. I don't seem to recall any of the NATO members protesting the bombing.

In my opinion, the US government has left its desire to protect the freedom and welfare of its people for the search of wealth, partially at the behest of its people (it's the economy, stupid). Americans are too lazy to learn about the complexities of conflicts before they jump in and some military and political leaders use this as a means of getting what they want. Either to get money for their pals or votes from a lazy electorate.

Dear Cizinec,

But I'm not condemning the American people and there is much, so much to commend our American brothers and sisters for!

You have much to be proud of and if I should ever become an American, you can be sure that I'll wear my flag pin on my lapel all the time, even to bed . . .

There is much in you that I, as a Canadian, am jealous of and wish we had.

There is a Ukie saying: One's life education never gets lost in the woods!

That applies to the Americans as much as to me, you know!

(And how you and the Administrator put up with me - yet another tribute to your American patience!)

Alex

Mosques burning? Seems to me that's a daily happening in Iraq with Shiites and Sunnis at each other's throats. How ironic that the US sticks its neck out to protect the downtrodden followers of the Prophet throughout the world and is still the object of so much hatred from these schizophrenics. I would not be surprised to see a coalition of Orthodox nations standing up for their fellow believers sooner or later. Wouldn't they be justified if they did? Lets face it, Muslims are still seeking revenge over the Crusades, who know maye Spain was targeted for their expulsion of the Moslems 500 years ago?

Alex, your comments concerning American foreign policy in the middle east is a bit 'French' - have you been hanging out in Quebec again ?

Let's face it, the USA spends a huge amount of money on defence, intelligence, and foreign aid around the world so that Canadians can have the good life without paying for it.

Amercians 'pay through their teeth' for drugs, often up to 6 times as much as Canadians. Why ? 'cause Canadians claim they are too 'poor' to pay the fair market value. So, Americans say "o.k." and sell Canadians the drugs real cheap.

Do you really think that the situation is any different for security ? If the USA forced Canada to pay it's fair share of North American and Global security costs, you would be living in a cardboard box. And if you don't think that it cost 'gazillions' of dollars - money Canadians do not have - then think again. Do you know how much it cost to run just NORAD ?

Also, have you ever seen Canada's navy in action ? - No because the country does not have a real navy. Canada could not even defend it's own coast if it had to. It had a hard time finding one single ship which could ferry soldiers to the middle east to fight terrorism.

The USA has made errors in who and how they support foreign regimes, but given the circumstances of the day, they were often the best and only options. The 1980's war in Afghanistan was an attempt to keep the Soviet Union from expanding it's sphere of influence, potentially right into Pakistan and India where communism was not a dirty word. Clearly it was not an attempt to spread radical Muslim philosophy, but an attempt to stop the 'evil empire' from spreading.

As a side note, did you know that the American government had made an agreement with the Afghanistan Muslim fighters in the 1980's to interrogate all captured Soviet soldiers. They were to determine if the Soviet soldiers were 'Ukrainian' and if so, did they have relatives in the West. If they did, the Muslim fighters agreed to hand them over to the Americans for propaganda purposes (ie: send them to the USA or Canada and work against the Soviet Union). Because of this real threat, the Soviets screened out all potential Ukrainians with relatives in the West from active combat in Afghanistan. Pretty much all young Ukrainian men from Galicia (Ukraine) got of the hook. My cousin Andrij was spared active duty which had a 1/4 chance of being a death sentence.

Overall the USA has done a great job in keeping NAZIS and Communists from taking over the world. We won the cold war.

You are also wrong about economic prosperity. When the former president of Ukraine Leonid Kravchuk visited Canada as a frontrunner for the first presidency, he was greated by a thousand Ukies at a black tie dinner event at the prestigious York hotel in downtown Toronto. People were very suspicious of him because he was an excommunist turned nationalist. At one point during the question and answer period, the speaker asked him "what do you want for Ukraine ?". There suddenly was a complete silence in the room and Kravchuck said "the same as you have here in North America !". It should therefore come as no surprise to you that this type of desire / wish is pretty universal. O.k. - maybe they also want universal health care too, but so do most Americans.

Business in America is a little more brutal than in Canada. Donald Trump is the rule, not the exception. Canada in many ways is a kinder, gentler nation even in business.

Hritzko

Dear Hritzko,

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

If mine is "French," yours is "American" - so you've obviously been hanging around places characterised by American ideology, my friend!

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But, as you've constantly read into the issue about the UGCC patriarchate, so too about my post on the U.S.

I don't care a rat's posterior about the Canada-U.S. situation.

I do care about U.S. foreign policy where mistakes are made that we all have to later pay for - and I don't mean with money.

If you feel the U.S. has done a good job on foreign policy and Serbia et al., then good for you.

I don't.

And judging by the e-mails I've received from people here, a lot of others don't either.

Alex