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If you think I "demur as to them as being hyper-Eastern or anti-Western or latinophobic" well that is somewhat ironic after you demur "thoroughly your own thinking is latinized". I guess it cuts both ways.

I would still be interested in knowing what that regrettable situation has to do with calling for Rome to now suppress or subordinate the Latin hiearchy in the Holy Land.

Were these Christians still Christians when the Jesuits arrived?

Is there clear evidence of forced or coerced assimilation on a wide scale? It is my understanding that the Holy See wanted to preserve the Greek liturgy in the south and that's why it established the Pontifical Greek College of S. Atanasio in 1577, as well as a Greek College at Palermo in 1715, and the Corsini College in 1736. Were there any popes who were hostile to the Italo-Greek-Albanians?

From studying history in college I have learned the lesson that, no matter how strong culturally, a minority culture group within a larger, stronger culture group always loses many people to assimilation in some way or other. And usually, once the language goes, so does the culture. There have been notable exceptions, e.g. the Jews, the Spanish of New Mexico, the Armenians, but there was also usually some other factor involved that helped them e.g. the tourist industry in New Mexico helped create a romantic image of Old Spanish Santa Fe which bolstered support for the local Spanish culture.

Sorry, but I can make no sense of that statement. I said that you apparently do not perceive how latinized your thought processes are if you

1. consider such things (suppression of the Italo-Graeco communities) to be in the ordinary course of business
2. consider those who demur as to such to be "hyper-Eastern ... etc"

Scattered throughout this thread is some detailed discussion by several of us, as well as links to other materials relevant to the suppression of the Churches.

Many years,

Neil

Please take note that the Italo-Greaco comunities (italo-albanians who use the greek for the liturgy) have not been suppressed but still exist with two Eparchies in South Italy: there have been sometime in the past some suppressions of parishes, but mainly because the etnic gruop was no more present in those parishes.
The bishops of these Eparchies derive their ordinations from Melkite bishops or Ukrainian bishops, and their liturgy has no latinizations, dont use the RDL nor similar, and it includes the "zeon" and the leave-out of the filioque

We actually have one of their three (?) US parishes here in Las Vegas.

hawk

Neil just don't worry about it.

You could just as easily have typed "I disagree with that asessment - Scattered throughout this thread is some detailed discussion by several of us, as well as links to other materials relevant to the suppression of the Churches."

Instead you opted to weigh in with your disaproving opinions as to how I think. So be it.

Really Neil, its Bright Week, I really don't feel like it, and when you call me latinized, it just doesn't bother me at all.

We are how we are - rather than let the antipathy grow more palpable I will just move on.

Hope your Bright Week is going well.

Many years.

Because Easterns understand Easterns better, and most Easterns haven't been infected with the modernism that's the default mode of most Westerns these days.

I'd question if they were Christians after the Jesuits arrived.

I am still working my way through the thread, but I came across one comment of yours which I don't see a basis for:


Looking through the article I was very hard pressed to see any triumphalism. In fact I found this statement:


There was a great problem of Italian Latin priests illegally taking wives or trying to get around the celibacy requirement, so I can understant why there were issues with Latins becoming Greek Rite Catholics so as to have a wife and enter the priesthood. It was felt that this is not a sufficient reason for switching rites. As for the Eucharist, it seems that these laws coincided with the Protestant Reformation and the Hussite disturbance. Thus the Church did not want to encourage Protestantism from disaffected Latins joining the ranks of the Greek Catholics. I didn't get any sense of triumphalism, just a clear lack of detailed explanations for things.

I am still making it through the long thread, so please bear with me.

Dios te bendiga.

Byzantophile:

I am a bit dense so please bear with me. Are you saying that a male layman<Latin Rite> who's wife is Latin Rite he will not be allowed to change his Rite from Latin to Byzantine if she remains Latin. It is late, sorry if I have missed something.

Converted Viking

LOL. I don't think that's what the Catholic Encyclopedia was saying. It's basically telling about the [then] stricter rules for the switching of rites in Italy. When Catholics from two different rites marry, the spouse usually has the option to switch rites. The children are then supposed to be raised in the rite of the father. The above mentioned rules seemed to have been stricter and this seems like it was most likely done to keep Latins opposed to clerical celibacy (and most probably many other things) out of the ranks of the Greek clergy. In the Western Church (at the time these rules were made) there were many in favor of married clergy, communion under both species, the vernacular language in the liturgy, etc. Now while the Eastern Church has had these venerable customs since time immemorial, in the Western church a desire for such things more often than not went hand-in-hand with heresy e.g. the Wycliffites. It seems to me that these rules were enacted partly to keep such elements out of the Greek Rite clergy.

Shlomo Hawk,

Actually, we here in Las Vegas have the ONLY Italo-Greek Catholic Church in the United States. Our Lady of Grace Society in NY, is only a mission and meets once a month. I know of no other parish.

I wish we Eastern Catholics would do as our Oriental Orthodox do, that is appoint a missionary eparch and have them go about developing parishes and an eparchy. That is what the Syriac Orthodox have done, as well as the Copts. Each Eastern Catholic Church should have a eparch here in the United States and the Americas and we should help them develop.

Back in 1997, I went to the Ethiopian College on the Vatican grounds and invited the priests their to visit America. They came the next year and went to 10 different US cities that had Ethiopian Catholic communities. Yet today we still have only one Ethiopian Catholic priest and parish in this country.

We must come together, no matter which Church tradition we belong to. We need to develop a way to help across the board the development of our Churches with the help of the Roman Church and its members. How many of us have helped the CNEWA in its mission? How many of us have asked for its help? How many of us have asked our eparchs to develop and Eastern Catholic office within the USCC? We have lots of tools, but hardly any of us seem to want to build the House of God that we are called to do.

I hope that more would take the talents that they have and help our Churches move foreward.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Hmm. I recall being told three when by a deaconal candidate a couple of years ago, and I want to say with three missions, too.

Its website merely identifies it as "Byzantine Catholic."

hawk