www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Orthodox Stigmatist Nun - living

I will let Brigid reply for herself. What follows is my opinion on the subject. I am a cradle Orthodox. I appreciate the fact that Richard and others from the Western Christian tradition have experienced spiritual blessing from Mother Susan and others like her.

However, speaking as an Orthodox Christian, our Church does not have this in our tradition. Our emphasis has always been on the joy of the Resurrection and on corporate worship. Also, the Orthodox Church as Brigid has explained it so well, frowns on emotionalism.

Regarding the emphasis on joy: as one example, Bishop Kalistos (Ware) on page 13 of his translation of the The Lenten Triodion writes "This sense of resurrection joy, so vividly ...forms the foundation of all the worship in the Orthodox Church.."

And on page 22 "...the period of Lent is TIME NOT OF GLOOM BUT OF JOYFULNESS. It is true that fasting brings us to repentence and to grief for sin, but this penetent greif..is a joy creating sorrow. ...The season of Lent...falls not in midwinter when the countryside is frozen and dead, but in spring when all things are returning to life...Lent signifies not winter but spring, not darkness but light, not death but renewed vitality."
I believe this is thr true expression of the Orthodox Church and it expresses why we do not have stigmatists as in the Western Church.

Brigid and Miller,

The spirituality of Mother Susan and her Oriental Orthodox Church is that of the West Syriac tradition, not the Greek tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, so the spirituality will be different, but not essentially in contradiction.


This is the valid perspective of the Eastern Orthodox spirituality. It is different among the West Syriac Oriental Orthodox which emphasize the pain of the Passion and the sorrow of the sacrificial offering, as well as, the joy of the resurrection.

The Passion of Jesus, including the emotions of sadness and mourning, runs deep among the Syriacs, and there are hymns of sorrow in this tradition. Our Lady is called Oum al Hazina (Mother of sadness/mourning).

Here are a couple of Youtube videos:



God bless,

Rony

I have to disagree with you. Maybe as a Catholic, your church has been Latinized to some extent or you have been influenced by studying in a Roman Catholic institution.

Check out this web page on the worhsip of the Syriac Malankara (Jacobite) Orthodox Church:
http://www.syrianchurch.org/Worship.html
and also their church web site at:
http://www.syrianchurch.org/

Both the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches share a common history in emphasizing the joy of the resurrection. I have been to the Syriac Malankara Orthodox Church in Canada during their holy week and I was amazed how similar their services are to my church except they have a cross wrapped in a white cloth for their procession. Clerical students from India have been sent to study in Russian Orthodox seminaries since World War 2 and our seminary here in Canada has had Coptic students. I have also visited Coptic churches here in Canada.

Furthermore, Mother Susan is not a nun even in her own church and spent 3 years in a Roman Catholic convent. The canonical Syriac (Jacobite) Malankara Orthodox Church also does not have any stigmatists. Notice that both the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches do not have a tradition of stigmatists. Also both the Oriental and Eastern Churches do not emphasize individualism in the same way as in Western European culture with its Roman Catholic background.

Dear Michael,
This may provide some insight into your question. It is a review of the movie, The Passion of Christ, Review of the Passion by George S. Gabriel, Ph.D. from Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Seminary in Boston written in 2004:

Since we are talking about Oriental Orthodoxy, the following includes a good quote from St. Isaac the Syrian which may be on target:

Dear Friends,

Thank you for your contributions to this thread. I started it when I learned that Michael Thomas, also a learned contributor, had commented on Mother Susan Kuruvilla, the living stigmatist of the Malankara Syrian Orthox Church of India.

Although I was raised and educated by Dominican Fathers as a Roman Catholic, I journeyed to India some years ago to meet with Mother Susan and experience the Orthodox prayer life and liturgies at the Mar Gregorios Ashram which she founded in the Mulanthuruthy district of the state of Kerala in 1973. I had always been fascinated with mystical phenomena and I also felt a strong calling to the Gospel command to help the poor.

Subsequently, having witnessed the passion ecstasies which Mother Susan suffers by God's Grace and under the power of the Holy Spirit, I returned to the United States and have continued to make efforts to bring awareness of this extraordinary charism in the Universal Church to the awareness of the faithful of all persuasions. When in India, I saw at the Ashram only the Gospel fruits of God's Love, especially in Charity for the neediest.

I have made many posts on this thread and have attempted to clarify various issues surrounding such a rare phenomenon in both the occidental and oriental Churches.

In return, many of you have made contributions which have helped to sharpen my own understanding of the history and cultures of the multiplicitous churches which have their common root in the life, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus and the narrative handed down to us in the Gospel.

I definitively, adamantly, and absolutely take exception to the comment by Orest that Mother Susan is not a nun. Mother Susan is not only a nun of the Malankara Church but was elevated to Motherhood in a ceremony at the Ashram which she founded by five consecrated Bishops of the Malankara Syrain Orthodox Church, which is headed by Baselios Marthoma Didymus I, Heir to the Apostolic Throne of Saint Thomas. In addition to founding the Mar Gregorios Ashram in Kerala, Mother Susan also has founded an official order of nuns, the Legion of Mary of Mar Gregorios Ashram.

The Malankara Orthodox enjoy at present an intercommunion agreement with the Holy Roman See. And papal representatives, at my urging have met with Mother Susan and their letter of recogntion is posted on the front page of www.themercyfund.org [themercyfund.org]


I strongly urge, therefore, that contributors refrain from spreading misinformation about something they know little about. All inquiries for official information can be directed to me by PM.

We are all heirs to Christ. While some have expressed within this Forum that their preference is to see that an emphasis is placed on the resurrectional aspects of our common sacred heritage and that references to and the experience of Christian suffering should somehow be dismissed or relegated to a subordinate or unimportant role . . . . . these persons, it seems to me, and I say so with kindness, should go to their Bibles and read the accounts of the Passion of Christ conveyed to us by the evangelists. They should apprise themselves as well of the sacred history of the martyrs who spilled their blood to water the soil of the infant Church and the esteem and remembrance with which the Churches embraces their sacrifice. And they should be aware that martydom yet continues in our day, most recently in the kidnapping of the Chalcedonian Catholic Bishop of Iraq, which event was uniformly condemned and deplored by both ecclesial and government officials worldwide. And they may also remind themselves of the prophecies of the "Suffering Servant" by Isaiah. Any Christian who eschews or minimizes the importance of suffering is not rightly a Christian as it is understood by all the Churches.

All of us as Christians celebrate the Resurrectional aspects of our faith and we do so with great joy and hope, especially at this time of year. But we must remind ourselves that the Gospel and the theologies of our various traditions have taught us that the Cross proceeds the resurrection. Some contributors here seem to be dismissive of the idea of suffering which is essential to both our human experience and our Faith.

With regard to the charges about emotionalism, I would like simply to point out that emotions are part of life and the humanity which Our Lord took the form of in order to redeem us. I have emotions across the spectrum of human feeling, so do you, and I know personally that Mother Susan, the living stigmatist, also does. The suggestion that the unique charism of the stigmata is somehow to be equated with emotionalism is patently to be dismissed and shows an ignorance of the historic facts of the various mystical phenomenon recorded in the annals of all the Churches, both East and West.

For those who have qualms about the phemomenon of the stigmata, I would recommend "The Little Flowers of Saint Francis". This centuries old book, written by his spiritual children that observed him in his lifetime, contains an account of his mystical vision which led to his stigmatization on the Mount of Alverna near the end of his earthly life.

Thank you.

Orest,

What specifically do you disagree with? Are you disagreeing that the West Syriac tradition emphasizes both the sacrificial aspect of the passion and the joyful aspect of the resurrection? Or are you specifically disagreeing with whether the stigmatic phenomenon can historically and currently be found in this tradition?

I will say this:

If you are disagreeing with the first question on emphasis, than I would have to disagree with your disagreement. If you are disagreeing with the second question on the stigmata, then I don't really have much of a problem with your disagreement from the historical perspective, since I myself am not aware of any historical West Syriac Stigamtists. Currently, though, this Oriental Orthodox nun has these wounds.


This is similar to me saying that maybe since you are an Eastern Orthodox, then the EO lenses are influencing the way you see non-EO Apostolic traditions.


What specifically did you want me to look at in these sites?


Yes, and the Orientals also emphasize the sacrifice of the Passion.


How is this opposed to the emphasis of the sacrificial offering, the suffering of our Lord Jesus Christ at His passion?


What does that have to do with the discussion? Should I bring up comments like the fact that you can find Oriental Orthodox students at the Pontifical Oriental Institute in Rome? What would be the point of doing that?


She is a nun in her own Church, and receives communion as the video shows. She spent three years in a Roman Catholic convent, so what? She's not a Roman Catholic. She is a Stigmatist in the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, and Richard made the comment earlier that she was given entire and complete approbation to both herself and the phenomenon of the stigmata.


You know what I find really interesting and perplexing is that according to this site: http://www.orthodox.net/greatlent/synaxarion-sunday-2.html
St. Gregory Palamas was "also adorned with the wounds of Christ, bearing also in himself Christ's, according to Paul". Hmm?


There is a very strong communal aspect to the Eastern and Oriental mindset, and typically devotions are community and publicly oriented. The emphasis is more community than individual. However, this does not exclude the activity of God, sometimes, in performing a miracle or in causing some phenomenon through an individual for the edification and strengthening of the Church.

God bless,

Rony

Richard Tasca ,

Thank you for coming here to spread your message - the message of Mother Susan.

We are not used to a member coming and starting a thread and making no posts other than on that thread - and this is a little strange to us.

To some extent, I feel as if I am being bashed over the head with a very large and heavy plank and frankly my head is hurting.

I personally need time to take in what has been said , I need time to digest it , and after that make up my own mind on this topic.

Dear Michael,

My Orthodoxy would make it uncomfortable for me. Stigmatists are unknown in the Orthodox tradition and the type of experience which produces them is something about which the Fathers advise us to be extremely cautious. I think I would need to have more evidence in order to be convinced that the bearing of the 'marks of Christ' mean that Saint Gregory Palamas was a stigmatist in the manner of Padre Pio. This phenomenon is associated with the spiritual traditions of Latin Christianity, with its emphasis on the physical sufferings of Christ and its use of imagery in prayer. Growing up Roman Catholic I was used to this tradition, but I have found a different approach in Orthodoxy. Miller has already alluded to the idea of 'bright sadness' which is indeed one of the differences in approach that I have found. But having been introduced to the teachings of the Fathers on the importance of guarding the thoughts, being distrustful of the imagination in prayer and of the dangers in seeking personal emotional experiences due to the very real threat of spiritual deception, I could not embrace the sort of spirituality being promoted here. Nor would I view it as something which will promote unity between east and west, as the Soufanieh website would wish. I accept the sincerity of the individuals involved and can pass no judgment on their sanctity, all I am saying is that there are a number of aspects of this which make me deeply uncomfortable as an Eastern Orthodox.

Brigid

This talk of "tradition" puzzles me. There is no "tradition" of
stigmatists in the Latin Church,rather there is a history of
stigmatists. How this phenominon "works" we do not know. It may
well be a gift of God; we cannot assume that it is not in any
given case. If stigmatism appears suddenly in a Church which
has no history of such a thing, it is the
responsibility of the bishops of that Church to pronounce upon it.
That such a thing has not happened before in that Church does
not mean that it cannot happen now.

Edmac

Dear Edmac,

I was using tradition in the sense of the collective experience of the Church, its life and its practice. It's therefore a little more involved than just saying that there is no history of stigmatics in Orthodoxy, we would need to go to the sources of our tradition and examine the phenomenon in that light. The Fathers do warn us to be very careful of seeking private visions and phenomena because of the dangers of prelest, or spiritual deception. They have even quoted instances where monastics have been deluded into thinking they were seeing visions of angels or of Christ Himself, only to have been experiencing the deceit of demons. The Church to which Mother Susan belongs is of course free to decide the matter for itself. You say that because something has not happened before in a Church does not mean that it cannot happen now, but I'm sure you understand that the Orthodox are cautious about novelty. You know, the old joke 'how many Orthodox Christians does it take to change a lightbulb?' 'Change? what is this ..change?'

Brigid

Dear Brigid,

Your response to Edmac demonstrates a rather profound and deep understanding of the tradition of the Church Fathers which both Eastern and Western Churches have preserved and hold sacred. I am deeply familiar with the reasoning which you have so intelligently and generously contributed and rejoice that you are also familiar with what is precious to my understanding.

I always felt that the experience an advice of the Fathers which informs your recent post is most certainly and definitively modeled after the Gospel story of the fast and temptation of Jesus in the desert. It was through their imitation of Jesus in this regard that the Fathers of our common Churches arrived at the illumination of an understanding of the things of God.

As we have just passed through the Lenten season, there are some wonderful postings on fastings which are available in this Forum. I have profited from being aware of them.

Richard Tasca

Dear Edmac,

Everything you have stipulated is, indeed, correct.

The Catholicose and Bishops of the Malankara Syrian Orthdox Church - these Apostolic authorities, as well as medical doctors in both India and the United States - have passed judgement many years ago on what you correctly call "phenomenon" as opposed to tradition. I like to think of it as a "charism" or "miracle" or "special grace" of and for the Universal Church of Our Lord.
However, once the process of canonization has occurred, I do think it morphs into tradition. It is correct to say that all the churches share in common a tradition of veneration of the Saints and the Blessed.

Much information is available at www.themercyfund.org [themercyfund.org], including, on the front page, a link to a copy of a letter of approbation and support from the Catholic Near East Welfare Agency, founded in 1926, the year before Mother Susan was born, by Pope Pius XI of late memory. The papal representatives in India met with Mother Susan at Mar Gregorios Ashram at my request and urging in 2005. We maintain close and cordial relations.

In response to Michael Thomas' request for further documention, I have contacted Mother Susan and Rembachen T. K. Mathew, Vicar and Chaplain of the Mar Gregorios Ashram - we do communicate on a regular basis - and I have been assured that a letter of approbation and asservation of approval regarding Mother Susan and the Grace of God which has worked through her for so many decades is forthcoming from His Holiness Baselios Marthoma Didymus I, Catholicose of the East and Heir to the Throne of Saint Thomas.

They have indicated that they will attempt to send it to me by email. But it may take some time as things in India happen slowly and the courier service to the United States is slow if it becomes necessary to send it by postal service.

I will make every attempt to publish the document on the worldwide web once I have received it. And I hope to be able to alert this Forum to that publication.

Thank you for your fine contribution to this thread.

Richard Tasca

Dear Richard I think you may inadvertently added to our confusion about Mother Susan being or not being a tonsured Orthodox nun. For example, I thought there was only one Orthodox Church in India, the canonical Syriac Malankara Orthodox Church under the jurisdiction of the Syriac Patriarch of Antioch.
Then you clarified that she belonged to another church that is not under the Patriarch of Antioch.

I am also the person who said that her ashram was not listed on the web site of her own church. And you answered thus:


To me and probably others your answer sounds as if Mother Susan is a private individual with her own good works of charity and her ashram is not under the authority of her hierarch. There is a difference to having the blessing and support of her church and being a tonsured nun in a religious foundation under the authority of a hierarch and following the traditional live of prayer in a monastery.

It is not uncommon in Orthodoxy for brotherhoods or in 19th century Russia even sisterhoods of laity to establish institutions of charity or good works. Also in the Orthodox tradition it is not unheard of to call spiritual elders �Mother�. This title is not restricted to nuns. It is my understanding that in Orthodoxy all tonsured monks are called �father� even if they are not priests and all tonsured nuns called �mother�. This has been my experience in visiting Orthodox monasteries.
Also I was surprised by your comments on an "order of nuns" because Orthodox do not have "orders" and the name "Legion of Mary" sounds unusual to me.


Any documentation regarding the validity of Mother Susan�s stigmata would not really influence me because I am not questioning her faith.


As an Orthodox Christian I do not understand how a canonical Orthodox Church could be in communion with Rome and still be in communion with the Orthodox Church. The Malankara Syriac (Jacobite) Orthodox Church is a canonical church in communion and under the jurisdiction of the Syriac Patriach of Antioch while Mother Susan�s church is not.


Sorry for such a long post, but I am coming to an end. We Orthodox are coming from a different religious tradition than your Roman Catholicism and I think Brigid put it best when she said she is �uncomfortable� with stigmata and that it is not something she as an Orthodox Christian would embrace. I agree with her and also add (with her) that this does not take away from the good works of Mother Susan. And I am glad that you yourself have been blessed by Mother Susuan.

Dear Halia,

Thank you for your intelligent and keen interest in the Forum which we share.

I understand your concern and also Brigid's. I do come from the Latin tradition and now I have been thrust into the Orthodox tradition of the East. Like you, I am trying to make sense of it all. The Body of Christ is broken and what we are all doing in this Forum is intended to heal that broken Body, to create more communion and fellowship in imitation of Christ and His apostles and also to bridge the great divides that have occurred historically due to both the sins of men and geographical separation. Part of the bridge has been provided by God through the efforts of women and men who make communication and travel easier in our time. The rest, the changing of our hearts and minds, the development of understanding and mutuality and commonality in the name of Christ, is up to us. And that is precisely what we are trying to do.

I believe that many of the questions that you have posed have already been answered in previous postings that I and others have made. It is allright to suggest that you review those postings?

When I traveled to India to meet Mother Susan, my Roman Rite tradition had in so many ways prepared me. I was not afraid of or uncomfortable with the phenomenon of the stigmata as for years I had been a disciple of Saint Padre Pio - www.padrepio.it. [padrepio.it.] When I was a young boy Saint Francis of Assisi was my hero. I wanted to be like Jesus and him.

But when I went to India to met Mother I was in a foreign culture and a different branch of the Church. I am still struggling to absorb and assimilate and understand all the differences and to make some sense of it all. Although I am privy to the details and close to the beloved Mother Susan of India, this Forum has been of invaluable assistance to me in sorting out some of the historical and ecclesial details of my experience which were quite "cloudy". I am grateful for the intelligent knowledge and kind sharing of it participants.

As well, I have tried to honestly share my own unique experience of our Holy Faith.

But be it known that what I have seen and witnessed with my own eyes and what I have heard with my own ears I am certain of, yes, as it was for Saint Thomas when the Risen Christ appeared to him after the Crucifixion.

What I have said about Mother Susan is true. The hierarchy of her Church acknowledge and participate in this truth and all marvel at the wonders that God Almighty works according to His Divine Providence. So many of my Roman friends in the West has engaged with avid interest in this phenomenon even though it is quite foreign to them. During Mother Susan travels to North America, multitudes came to witness and believe. Of course, the television crews also interviewed those who doubted, did not understand, or chose to malign.

I have given my full and entire assent, in mind and will, after a long process of discernment which involved my Roman Catholic Dominican Father spiritual advisor who was familiar with matters of the Oriental Churches. As I have previously indicated, I am on a familiar basis with papal officials.

I am an open book and I only want that everyone experience the same Grace and Blessing which God has granted to me in knowing of Mother Susan.

Halia, she is my spiritual mother. That is who I am. I am a servant of the servant of God. I hope you understand.

God bless you and thank you.

Richard Tasca