1 members (1 invisible),
261
guests, and
85
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums26
Topics35,506
Posts417,454
Members6,150
|
Most Online3,380 Dec 29th, 2019
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 560
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 560 |
Christos Voskrese! (Christ is Risen!) Voistinnu Voskrese! (Indeed He is Risen!)
Just curious. I attended at least two Pre-Sanctified Liturgies leading up to Holy Week and noticed that only once was Church Slavonic used. The Deacon actually threw it in for me at the end since he knows I love Church Slavonic and often sing quietly to myself in Slavonic during DL. I don't want to disturb anyone else, but I feel more comfortable singing the hymns in Slavonic.
My family attended Friday night services with me. No Slavonic.
My family attended Resurrection services with me. When we were outside the doors of the church, the priest tried "Christos Voskrese..." and the response was less than enthusiastic. About three people besides me, the priest and the Deacon. And the three that tried were rather anemic. After that it was all in English. Please, I am not blaming the priest in any way for using English the rest of the service. He does a wonderful job and tries very hard to maintain tradition. Our Liturgies are quite wonderful, with as much of the Liturgy as there should be. He has a very hard job with two regular parishes, a mission and a student mission at our local University. So four "parishes" is a lot of traveling for one man.
My nine year old, who has attended one Byzantine liturgy before, picked up the English "Christ is Risen..." very quickly and sang quite lustily after that whenever it came up during the service. I sang quietly to myself in Slavonic most of the time.
He asked me after why I didn't sing "Christ is Risen..." loudly, as he and everyone else was. I explained that I was singing, just in a different language and didn't want to disturb anyone else. He inquired what I was singing and I sang it to him in Slavonic. He picked it up quite quickly, even though the vowel and consonant combinations were quite new to him. He now has been going around the house singing "Christos Voskrese..." by himself, and if I start, he joins in with lots of engergy. There's a lot of smiling going on in my house between my son and I these days.
My question is: how much Slavonic was done in any of the services in your church or mission? I'm curious. And if my nine year old can pick up on Church Slavonic without much of a problem, why can't adults pick up on it also? It's not that hard, especially a short prayer such as "Christos Voskrese...." Just break it down to a few small phrases and within a matter of minutes, just about anyone can sing it without being embarassed. And the traditional greeting as well.
Is anyone aware of an effort to teach Slavonic to the younger (or even middle aged) members of the BCC? The attitude I keep getting (NOT from my priest) is that "why make people learn something new when we are having trouble filling the pews now?" Maybe standing out from the crowd will attract more attention (and therefore more potential members) than trying to conform and give Byzantines just one more reason to attend a RC, rather than a Byzantine church?
My son is now rather fired up about the Byzantine Liturgy and plans on attended more Liturgies with me in the future. Including this Saturday/Sunday coming up in my home church in my home town. He can't wait. It seemed to spark him in some way. Maybe because it was so different from what he was used to? Maybe standing out from the crowd is a good thing, when trying to attract new or even former members? Just an observation/question. I do not claim to know all the answers.
(My family has been attending a Lutheran church for several years since there was no Byzantine Mission in the town in which we live. Now we have a Mission and I attend as much as my health permits, which is not much. So this was certainly a new experience for my son. But he was completely in awe of the service that he witnessed--the procession Friday night to the tomb, the procession Saturday around the outside of the church, the group singing and chanting without any musical instruments, etc. And talking about keeping Vigil outside the tomb--he really wants to do that. Of course, he wants to do the 3am hour! He was profoundly moved. He said it was just so different from what he was used to and he liked it so much better than the Lutheran service. And I couldn't be happier.)
So, how much Slavonic was used in your church this past Holy Week?
Tim
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337 Likes: 24
Moderator Member
|
Moderator Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,337 Likes: 24 |
Tim,
At Presanctified we always sing "Having suffered the passion for us..." in Slavonic the second of the three times.
At Great Friday Vespers "The Noble Joseph" was alternated in English and Slavonic.
At Resurrection Matins and throughout the Paschal season when the Paschal troparion is sung, my priest sings it in Slavonic then we respond once in Slavonic and again in English, very loudly and very well. My priest also sang all the Irmosi in Slavonic and alternated the Pachal Verses in English and Slavonic.
At Liturgies the Cherubic Hymn is alternated in English and Slavonic and before Liturgy, after Liturgy and during Communion at least a couple Slavonic hymns are sung.
Fr. Deacon Lance
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510 |
X. B.
Sundays we attend one parish down town, weekdays we go to a local up the street and for Julian observance there is the Orthodox parish down the street all for quite a mix. Wednesday evening up street ANOINTING all English, HAVING SUFFERED 1st time priest & 2nd time people as written Ukrainian 1st part and Slavonic 2nd part, 3rd time priest English cantor solo English. Friday evening up street BURIAL all English NOBLE JOSEPH at entombment and at end 1st time priest in Slavonic, 2nd time people in Slavonic, 3rd time priest English cantor solo English. Saturday morning up street JERUSALEM MATINS priest started each segment in Ukrainian then went into English, people all English end NOBLE JOSEPH as before. Paschal food BLESSING followed all prayers English repeated in Ukrainian no X. B. singing. My kids went to afternoon BLESSING same as before, my brother went to evening VESPERS with LITURGY everything English X. B. Slavonic & one cantor English solo, Paschal food BLESSING repeated English & Ukrainian X. B. Slavonic. We went down town Sunday morning for MATINS 40% Ukrainian 60% English. All X. B. troparions and exclamations priests in Ukrainian people in Slavonic priest & cantor did one English solo. People sang Slavonic stikheron VOSKRES ESUS OT HROBA, ANHEL & SVEETISIA. PLOTTU priest 1st then People 2nd in Slavonic, all 3rd in English. DIVINE LITURGY choir 4 part music as written in Slavonic, EKTENIYA & �silent� read MEDITATIONS 50/50 Ukrainian & English, ALLELUIA Ukrainian, APOSTLE repeated Ukrainian & English, GOSPEL repeated Greek, Ukrainian & English, St. John & pastor�s HOMILY English, HYMNS people chant Ukrainian. As far as I know the Pascal food BLESSING after was attended only by pastor�s family presumably Ukrainian. Monday evening up street VESPERS with DIVINE LITURGY. All X. B. troparions and exclamations in Slavonic, cantor did one English solo, along with ANHEL & SVEETISIA English solo, but YELITSE all in Slavonic regular LITURGY and HOMILY English. Orthodox Pascha down street I expect a 25% Ukrainian 75% English no Slavonic. In our home for dinners all X. B. Slavonic include E NUM.
PS Cantor English solo is because no one joined in. Local protest that the language chosen was not to their liking, because they know this one in Slavonic phonetically. Don't anoint them assuming they don't know the seasonal Slavonic "password", they will answer you in Slavonic and withhold their tip when they reach your basket.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134 Likes: 1 |
X. B.
Sundays we attend one parish down town, weekdays we go to a local up the street and for Julian observance there is the Orthodox parish down the street all for quite a mix. Wednesday evening up street ANOINTING all English, HAVING SUFFERED 1st time priest & 2nd time people as written Ukrainian 1st part and Slavonic 2nd part, 3rd time priest English cantor solo English. Friday evening up street BURIAL all English NOBLE JOSEPH at entombment and at end 1st time priest in Slavonic, 2nd time people in Slavonic, 3rd time priest English cantor solo English. Saturday morning up street JERUSALEM MATINS priest started each segment in Ukrainian then went into English, people all English end NOBLE JOSEPH as before. Paschal food BLESSING followed all prayers English repeated in Ukrainian no X. B. singing. My kids went to afternoon BLESSING same as before, my brother went to evening VESPERS with LITURGY everything English X. B. Slavonic & one cantor English solo, Paschal food BLESSING repeated English & Ukrainian X. B. Slavonic. We went down town Sunday morning for MATINS 40% Ukrainian 60% English. All X. B. troparions and exclamations priests in Ukrainian people in Slavonic priest & cantor did one English solo. People sang Slavonic stikheron VOSKRES ESUS OT HROBA, ANHEL & SVEETISIA. PLOTTU priest 1st then People 2nd in Slavonic, all 3rd in English. DIVINE LITURGY choir 4 part music as written in Slavonic, EKTENIYA & �silent� read MEDITATIONS 50/50 Ukrainian & English, ALLELUIA Ukrainian, APOSTLE repeated Ukrainian & English, GOSPEL repeated Greek, Ukrainian & English, St. John & pastor�s HOMILY English, HYMNS people chant Ukrainian. As far as I know the Pascal food BLESSING after was attended only by pastor�s family presumably Ukrainian. Monday evening up street VESPERS with DIVINE LITURGY. All X. B. troparions and exclamations in Slavonic, cantor did one English solo, along with ANHEL & SVEETISIA English solo, but YELITSE all in Slavonic regular LITURGY and HOMILY English. Orthodox Pascha down street I expect a 25% Ukrainian 75% English no Slavonic. In our home for dinners all X. B. Slavonic include E NUM.
PS Cantor English solo is because no one joined in. Local protest that the language chosen was not to their liking, because they know this one in Slavonic phonetically. Don't anoint them assuming they don't know the seasonal Slavonic "password", they will answer you in Slavonic and withhold their tip when they reach your basket. WOW!!! http://www.brioschi-usa.com/ 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510 |
X. B.
Etnick,
No thank you, no need for it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134 Likes: 1 |
I dunno...Sounds like heartburn city! 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510 |
X. B.
Etnick,
Why? The cantor had everything prepared in booklets. Being in a hub of universities, colleges and international trade why should we be an English ghetto community?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134 Likes: 1
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134 Likes: 1 |
X. B.
Etnick,
Why? The cantor had everything prepared in booklets. Being in a hub of universities, colleges and international trade why should we be an English ghetto community? I'm not saying it should be an English ghetto. It's just that that post you made a few up is alot to digest. It's mind boggling! 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510 |
X. B.
That is why when the priest ask for prayers for vocations, I pray for cantor's. He or she is often from the parish and knows the needs and likes of the people better than most pastors.
Last edited by Mykhayl; 03/27/08 09:15 AM. Reason: inclusive language
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 76
Member
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 76 |
Tim,
At Presanctified we always sing "Having suffered the passion for us..." in Slavonic the second of the three times.
At Great Friday Vespers "The Noble Joseph" was alternated in English and Slavonic.
At Resurrection Matins and throughout the Paschal season when the Paschal troparion is sung, my priest sings it in Slavonic then we respond once in Slavonic and again in English, very loudly and very well. My priest also sang all the Irmosi in Slavonic and alternated the Pachal Verses in English and Slavonic.
At Liturgies the Cherubic Hymn is alternated in English and Slavonic and before Liturgy, after Liturgy and during Communion at least a couple Slavonic hymns are sung.
Fr. Deacon Lance My experience, in a different parish, mirrors that of Fr. Deacon Lance with the exception of the Cherubic Hymn which is always in English.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,231 |
We had more Spanish than Slavonic at the Sunday Matins/Vesper combo on Pascha. The Paschal troparion alternating with English at the start of Matins, Anhel/Svititsja (at the 9th ode at Matins only, during the Liturgy it was in English), and Jelicy during the Liturgy were the only Slavonic. The little litanies between the odes were alternated in English and Spanish (with responses only in English. Various of the previously slient prayers of the priest were done in Spanish as well. The gospel was read in the English and Spanish.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 510 |
X. B.
Don't you miss the good old days when we stood for the chanting of the Gospel in 12 languages; Greek, Latin. Aramaic, Slavonic, Ukrainian, English and a half dozen others. Oh by the way that was only a verse in each not all of John I.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,775
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,775 |
Here in Virginia, anything that is sung multiple times (the Noble Joseph, Christ is Risen, Your Resurrection, etc.) alternates between English and Slavonic until it's time to go to the next element in the service. It's nice and the people don't miss a beat going from one to the other. And it's been that way for the 30+ years that I've been a member of the parish. The newer (generally RC folks) don't sing as lustilly as the hunkies (May God preserve them for many years!!) but it generally works. We just need to have the cantors position themselves at the four corners outside the church so that we aren't hearing multiple music during the processions -- some at the doors, some with the clergy, etc.!!
We still have - thank God! - a significant number of Carpatho's in the parish so that the Slavonic is used 'naturally' and not just as a 'condiment' to the liturgical celebration.
I rejoice in the fact that our small church building was actually constructed by the people themselves - under the guidance of an architect/construction manager. So when we have the services and the processions and I look at our church building, I am reminded that this is not just some "edifice", but rather the handiwork of some of the people who are in procession with me. And I stand in awe of their incredible generosity and devotion. And the Slavonic is just part of the whole picture of the people who founded and (literally!) built this Church. And I am humbled and grateful for them and their efforts.
Christ is Risen! Blessings to All!
Dr John
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 476
Member
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 476 |
I know that having liturgy in "the vernacular" is a venerable tradition in the Eastern Church. But can someone answer me this: if the Second Vatican Council encouraged the Eastern Catholic Churches to make their liturgies "purer" (for lack of a better word) shouldn't the UGCC be using Church Slavonic since that is what the Eastern Orthodox in Ukraine and Russia use?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373 |
If you go to the Rusyn Radio Program link on the C-RS website, you can download the 1 hour Pascha Sunday special from March 23rd, '08. There are some nice audio files of the late Bishop John Bilock singing in Church Slavonic during the Paschal Matins and Paschal Divine Liturgy, and the blessing of the Paschal Foods. I believe it is from 1973. www.c-rs.org/RadioPgm/ [ c-rs.org] Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese! Ung
|
|
|
|
|