www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy How much Slavonic was used during Resurrection Services?

Wow, I wish I could attend such a liturgy in the "Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church of America", but no such luck.

Ung

Ung,

You're welcome at my parish. Slavonic liturgy is on the second and fourth Sundays.

Christos Posredi Nas!

Good one! It's past Bright Week for us "Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantines", so Christos Voskrese isn't appropriate, and my Orthodox brethren are still in the Great Fast!

Ung

Christos Voskrese! (Christ is Risen!)
Voinstinu Voskrese!) (Indeed, He is Risen!)

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. In no way do I want to maintain a Church Slavonic only Liturgy. I just don't see why on some occasions, especially special occasions such as Easter, we can't show some respect for our heritage and the sacrifices of our ancestors and sing some of the hymns in Church Slavonic. I do not think using only Church Slavonic is a good idea. It certainly won't evangelize anyone, as you rightly pointed out. That is not my intent. But I think to turn our backs on the sacrifices made by our ancestors who literally saved nickels and pennies while working like dogs in order to establish a church--well, that's just not right. Rusyn or Church Slavonic or any other type language may well be a "dead" language. I don't know the definition of a dead language. I know it isn't in my house. Each night we finish prayers with "Hospodi Pomilju." (Excuse the spelling, I just spent another five days in the hospital and the meds are still working their way out of my system.)

There isn't that much Church Slavonic in any Christmas Liturgy. Not that much in any other special liturgies. It's Easter where we have the most "traditional" things going on. Processionals around the church. Knocking on the church door during Resurrection Service, keeping vigil at the grave. No one is suggesting getting rid of those things, as a way of updating evangelization. They don't seem to be getting in the way. So why is singing "Christos Voskres" in Church Slavonic it's entirety such a danger to evangelization? Why is the Otce Nas such a dangerous thing that we should do all we can to stamp it out? Because that is the feeling I get sometimes when I read posts such as yours, Dr. John.

Maybe I am reading too much into it. As I said, please forgive me, I've just gotten out of the hospital and the emotional drainage of the meds is something most people don't recognize or even realize. But getting medicine out of my system alays hits me very hard, emotionally. And this happens to be a subject near and dear to my heart. So I get very emotional. Call it bad timing.

You said "Yikes! I am very distressed to hear that the maintenance of the liturgical language is a value in itself, regardless of its effect upon the worshippers." I disagree. Have you seen the YouTube films of Liturgy sung in Aramaic? And stopped to think that these words are the way we would have heard Jesus himself say them? Or Peter? Or any of the Apostles? Doesn't that fill you with a kind of emotional upheaval? To think I am "THIS" close to hearing what Jesus might have sounded like? Doesn't that touch you in the least? If it doesn't, then I guess your statement I quoted is correct and it has no value. And I feel sorry for you. But I'd be willing to bet that it does have some value to you. That it does cause your heart to beat just a bit faster. And if it does with one language, then why not with another language? Even if it's just a personal connection. Which I am not the only one too share, by the way if you read the forums.

Is it something personal to me and my generation? Perhaps. But does that make it any less real? Does that make it any less worthy of respect? Because I don't hear the respect in your words. I hear "let's move on, use any language we need to use in order to gain new converts." And if we use that criteria, then how far are we to changing the words themselves? We can change the language and turn our backs on sacrifices that most of us couldn't even begin to understand, our lives are so good compared to our parents, grandparents or great grandparents. So it seems so very easy to take the next step and say--let's change the words too.

That's a pretty slippery slope to me. One I'm not confident in taking. I don't have that expertise in religion. Of course we need to use the vernacular in whichever country we are in. That is also part of the tradition I am fighting to maintain. So I don't have a problem with English. But what is the problem so many people seem to have with Church Slavonic? I don't understand. It always seem to be a one way street. Changing to English--good. Preserving Church Slavonic--bad. Why?

Again, your words--"But to insist on these non-living languages as the total expression of the faith is not going to serve the evangelization needs of a Church committed to the Gospel of "go out and get 'em!"" I don't expect that. Nor do I want it. But a little respect is a good thing. Especially on Easter. We look both forward and backwards on Easter. We remember what Christ did for us on that day of days--He died on the cross. But we also look forward to what it means--life everlasting. But which direction do we look more--forward or backwards? In my opinion, backwards. So why not do it in such a way as to really look backwards and honor not only the sacrifice Christ made, but the ones made over the centuries, including the courage of those taken when signing the Treaty of Brest or the Treaty of Uzhorod. Those were very dangerous times in which to live. It took great courage to do what they did. Yet we turn out back so easily on those dangers. And from there to the sacrifices made my my grandparents, whom I knew and loved.

Feel free to disagree. Maybe I shouldn't be writing this now due to my emotional state. Morphine and dialaudid have a habit of affecting more than just muscles and nerves. But I think you are making light of something that is much, much more than something analogous to a book written for teenagers. I feel the same way about using the word "Nazi." People say "parking nazi's" when they get a ticket that they probably deserved, if they were honest with themselves. That's dangerous and not right. What the Nazi's did is not analogous to getting a parking ticket. Words have power. To misuse a word is to take a risk in misusing the power that word has.

I'm not making fun of your English, please don't make fun of my attachment to Chruch Slavonic, especially on the day when the gates of hell were thrown open for both of us.

Again, I apologize if I am reading more into your posts than I should. Maybe it's bad timing. But I've heard you say the same things in other posts, and I disagreed then as well. I just didn't bother to reply for one reason or another.

Tim

Brother Tim, tjm, thanks for your really heartfelt post. I don't think that we are really disagreeing. I'm also of the ethnic persuasion (Greek) and I more than understand the nickels and dimes of the working people, our forebears, who struggled to get a place to worship on their own without relying upon the kindness of the Episcopalians or others who so graciously welcomed them into a building. (Our Greek Orthodox parish in Boston still maintains the simple paper icons that were donated to the parish by my grandparents and other families, when it was founded. There is a special 'room' at the iconostasis where the original paper icons from 1912 are maintained. The structure was built Unitarian - classic and valuable pipe organ!, then became a Synagogue and then the Greeks got the funds and purchased it.)

I'm a 'mutant', half Greek and half Irish/German/French RC. I grew up in both churches - every Sunday, not one Eucharist, but two. I have no antipathy to anything in the past history of the Church. I can liturgize not only in English, but also Latin (thanks to seminary), and Greek (thanks to family) and also Slavonic (thanks to seminary). And I can flip back and forth without batting an eye.

While I realize that the Roman Catholic tradition (whatever it may be in a parish church) will survive, and I realize that the Greek tradition will continue since the Greeks seem to move in everywhere!, I am generally concerned that the sanctifying traditions of the Great Church of Constantinople will be lost if we do not continue to evangelize in the US and the rest of America. I have no doubt whatsoever that the spirituality that is our heritage has an immense value in bringing people to the Gospel of Christ. It's more profound and more spiritually demanding and people who enter into this spirituality receive deep rewards for their efforts when they make them.

The real problem is this: if we 'over-do' the various ethnic elements, we are at risk of alienating those who might convert to the Gospel. This does NOT mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that we should eliminate all vestiges of our historical pasts. The question is: how do we 'translate' the crucial elements of our spirituality (like the elements of the Lenten fast, the vesper/matins services, the elements of "forgiveness vespers", the blessings of flowers/plants/herbs, the blessing of the baskets of non-lenten foods, etc.) into 'human' practices that are not necessarily linked to ethnic observances? Surely these practices devolved from the inspirations of the various ethnic groups (e.g., Greeks don't do the 'basket' thing - we bring the lighted candles home from the Paschal services at midnight and eat at home until dawn - scares the daylights out of the cops who see cars on the road with people carrying lighted candles - scarier for them than drug dealers I presume!)

But the main idea is: how do we entice the non-churched to take a good look at how we live the Gospel and welcome them to take a 'test-drive'? And for this, the whole shootin' match has got to be transparent - both in language and in the practices that MUST be explained to them. We don't need the folks who are just looking for another psychological trip in spirituality. (We've all seen the folks who turn into the Reader Pamphnutios who grow long beards, don't bathe and affect an accent for a language that they can't speak. And then move on after 3 years to become some sort of Hindu shaman and wonder-worker.)

So, I'm in no way denigrating the use of Slavonic or Greek or Arabic; I'm just suggesting that we need to blend elements of our ethnic heritages with our contemporary American/Canadian/etc. way of life so that we both acknowledge the heritage, but avoid any elements that will inhibit the pilgrims from taking a serious look at who we are and our way of coming to salvation.

If we rely solely upon those from our own ethnic backgrounds, then with the patterns of marriage, etc., we will be gone in 50 years. And the sacrifices of our grand-parents and our great-grandparents will be nothing more than a footnote in the Smithsonian. And I don't want that to happen either.

Blessings to you - and I hope the meds are finally worn off with little or no effect. Morphine and dilaudid are a nasty combo.

Dr John

When I was child growing up in the Latin Catholic Church, I can remember the beautiful traditional Latin Masses--and I yearned for those Liturgies after the Novus Ordo swept the country. I did not know one word of Latin. Fast forward many years. My wife and I were drawn to the Ruthenian Catholic Church. Neither of us had a drop of slavic blood. We embraced Church slavonic and began to learn the sacred language. Today, about one half of the Liturgy in our Orthodox Church is in Church Slavonic. Our toddler is picking up on Slavonic like a second language. I also notice that the young teens tend to embrace the beauty and poetic nuances of Church Slavonic.

So I disagree with you--as usual.

The ethnic make-up and loving warmth of our parishes can be a powerful evangelization tool.

God bless.

Recluse,

I couldn't have said it better myself, or agree with you more! I'm glad I'm not the only one who truly loves the Divine Liturgy in Church Slavonic.

I agree that he liturgical forms have a beauty unto themselves. Both the form as well as the music have the power to transport the worshipper from this world to the next. And this becomes part of the individual's experience of the 'other-wordlyness' that the rituals can encompass and provide. I am intrigued by the "my experience" and "my/we embracing" terminology. It's not "me" or "us", it's the unchurched that must be the focus for Christians. Although we don't use the word, we are supposed to be "evangelicals" - spreaders of the 'evangelium'. We have the 'mark'; we need to give it to others. We need the zeal: "because you are neither cold nor hot, therefore will I vomit you forth from my mouth".

The main issue is this: apart from the individual's experience, how can this formulation be used to bring others into the Word of the Gospel?

If people are not ready to become 19th Century Muscovites or 20th century Tridentine Latins, do we just say: too bad - go to the Evangelicals?

As the parable points out, when the Shepherd goes after the one sheep that is lost, are we willing to say: too bad you don't like the Latin or the Slavonic because your salvation depends upon this?

We MUST be in a mindset that is going after the ones who are seeking. We MUST be willing to sacrifice what makes US comfortable to reach out to those who need to hear the Gospel message. If it involves saying "all people who love the Lord" as opposed to "all men who love the Lord", is this too much of a price to pay to save someone else's soul?

I'm trying to listen to Jesus, the Christ. And He broke the rules to get to anyone and everyone to ensure their salvation. It is clear that His death and resurrection destroyed the old laws; how dumb is it for us to establish new laws that countermand what He set out to accomplish among people? As St. Paul put it: "Oh, the freedom of the people of God". It's the spiritual equivalent of saying: "Get over it; and get on with it."

Blessings to All!

Dr John

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If an unchurched person or a disaffected Western Christian walks into an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox church looking for meaningful worship, the sheer beauty of the Liturgy will win them over.

I really think that if they hear a native tongue of Slavonic, Ukrainian, Romanian, etc, mixed into the Liturgy that they might actually feel like, WOW, this a place that really worships God!

Recluse said it best a few posts above. He went from Latin to Ruthenian to Orthodox. He's doing fine, and so is the parish. Too much emphasis is being placed on language in the Eastern Church.

We're too small to be worried about what people might think if they hear a few words of a foreign tongue in our worship.

The beauty of the Christian East will win them over.

The nuance being that they are actually there. Choirs are choirs - that is like looking for an enthusiastic young conservative at GOP HQ. Are all the grandkids who aren't there as interested?

Sure, there will always be folks who are drawn to it for a variety of reasons - and I don't begrudge them that. There comes a point where it is useful and wise to recognize where your personal tastes and proclivities begin and end.

I do not understand your point? Are you saying that Church Slavonic should be phased out in the Ruthenian Catholic Church?

Amen Etnick. It is difficult to read that some people justify the use of gender neutral language and the phasing out of Church Slavonic as a means for evangelization. Perhaps someone will petition the bishops to re-translate the Liturgy once more into street slang.

The Liturgy evangelizes the world.
Changing the Liturgy through political agendas and modernizations will not ease our mission. But of course, some will learn this lesson the hard way.

Christos Voskrese! (Christ is Risen!)
Voisinnu Voskrese! (Indeed, He is Risen!)

Another agreement, Recluse. Changing the Liturgy by making it more like every other Liturgy out there is not going to give anyone a reason to stay in the EC churches if there not one very, very close (or even convenient Liturgy times), nor is it going to attract people who are not familiar with us. What makes us different? That is our strength. And our strength is our Liturgy as well as our use of Slavonic. Religion is a very emotional thing--we don't use logic, we use our hearts. Being different touches people's hearts. Being the same as everyone else turns people away.

Small changes lead to big changes over time. Why not start using street language if that's what it takes to get people into the pews? Because then we are not who we are. Perhaps the biggest population of people who could prove the easiest to evangelize are those that have fallen away. And being different is not going to bring them back. The visceral experience they had as a child--Blessing of Baskets at Easter, Mirovanje, Palm and Pussy Willows on Palm Sunday, sitting Vigil at the Grave, singing in Slavonic, etc. Those are the ones that will leap out of their subconscious when they re-experience them. Doing away with them will just give them another reason not to attend an EC church.

By no means do we ignore those who have never been a part of the EC churches. But there are so many people out there that are prodigal sons, waiting to return. Let's fatten up the calf in anticipation and go after them! I was away for years. Now that I have returned I cannot tell you the joy I feel when I can attend Liturgy. It is just such an emotional experience. I look forward to it and feel cheated when I can't go for one reason or another. I want so much to have those things back I lost when I left the church. My present mission is small, so we don't even have a church of our own. But one day we will. And I will rejoice when I can sit Vigil at the Grave at Easter, process around the church and sing with all my heart--"Christos Voskrese iz mertvych!"

Tim

Please do us all a favor and write down the proper greetings and responses and when to say them. I do not remember "Christos Posredi Nas!" for some reason. We need to put them down in writing for everyone to refer to.

Throw me a bone, please!

Put Greeting in Slavonic, English translation. Response in Slavonic with English translation. Time period when it should be said and why.

Thanks!

Tim

Amen to you, my brother in Christ!
Your post was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit!