www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Orthodox Stigmatist Nun - living

I also am very uncomfortable.

To me Mother Susan seems to be a mixture of Catholicism and Orthodoxy - and really this cannot be.

Like Halia12 I find this order is not what we would expect of Orthodoxy .

I just have some problem accepting this at face value - I may seem harsh , and I do not mean to be.

I am sure that Mother Susan has done , and will continue to do , good works.

As to her canonical affilitaion - this is very puzzling and possible only really understood by someone from either the Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church or the Syrian Orthodox Church.

I remain puzzled by this - and am left feeling very very uncomfortable

Richard ,

One further question if you would permit it - my curiosity has really been aroused.

Your profile states that you are non-denominational , I wonder are you Orthodox or Catholic - you really cannot canonically be both .

The link you provided doesn't work. I would also like you to explain what you mean by "inter communion"? As far as I can tell, your Church is the Indian equivalent of the Assyrian Church of the East correct? How can one be in Communion with the Assyrian Church and with the Catholic Church? Just a little more clarity on the status here would be nice.

Actually, Mother Susan's Church is not the one Richard mentioned.

There are two "Orthodox" jurisdictions in India, one under the Syriac Patriarch of Antioch called the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (also called the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church) and one that is autocephalous called the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.

Sometimes on paper only difference in the names in English is the "syrian orthodox" vs. the "orthodox syrian" difference. In the Malayalam language, there are other distinctions - one faction is called the "Patriarchal faction" (Bava kakshi) and the other the "Bishop's faction" (Metran kakshi). This is more difficult to explain in English, since the distinctions are so complex.

Mother Susan is a nun in the Malankara Orthodox Church (Bishop's faction "Metran kakshi").

While the Syriac or (Indian) Malankara Orthodox Church do not have "religious orders" as the Latin Church does, there are distinct groups of nuns (unlike Byzantine Orthodoxy).

The first religious order of the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church was founded by an Orthodox bishop who became Catholic. When he converted, the majority of his "order" joined with him.

The "order" remains in the Orthodox Churches of India with those who took up the community when their hierarch converted.

GMmcnabb,
The Assyrian Church is a different matter altogether and have nothing to do with the churches mentioned here.



As to inter-communion among Syriac/Indian Orthodox and Catholics - there is not "full intercommunion", there is limited intercommunion with the Catholic Church among members for emergencies, inter-family matters (such as weddings, funerals, and baptisms, etc), and when one cannot attend the other Church (such as in the Mid-East or in circumstances where one must attend the other church). This agreement is far less rigid than with most other Orthodox Churches, so it may seem lax, but it is the best solution that the bishops of the two Churches involved have come up with and it works for us.

Is that the autocephalous one?

May I ask you a couple of other questions? I have noticed that some of the iconography of the Thomas Christians is very westernized, and in particular have noticed a portrait of Christ on some of the websites that I would associate with the depiction of the Sacred Heart. Are the Indian Orthodox more open to western influences? I ask this, of course, with the understanding that one finds styles of iconography in eastern Orthodoxy as well which don't measure up to the strict purity of the Byzantine tradition!

Secondly, on one of the sites of Mother Susan it lists that one can have both the Holy Qurbana (which I presumed was the Syriac Liturgy) or Gregorian Masses said. Are the latter in reference to the patron of the Ashram, Mar Gregorios, or are they what I would know as the western mass?

http://mgashram.org/My_Homepage_Files/Page15.html

Sorry to fire off yet more questions, but I know next to nothing about Indian Orthodoxy and would like to understand more about this particular case. I have followed up on a number of the references and the more I read the more I feel uncomfortable. It is also claimed that Mother Susan, in addition to the phenomenon of the stigmata, does not take food or drink, goes into trances and makes 'manna' appear.

http://www.themercyfund.org/AMMACHY.pdf

I have never heard of such a thing in connection with mainstream Eastern Orthodoxy, so wonder if it is something that mainstream Oriental Orthodox would also find disturbing.

Thank you for your patience,

Brigid

Yes the autocephalous one, aka "Metran kakshi", aka Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.


There isn't a large Tradition of iconography (of the Byzantine variety) in Syriac or Indian Orthodoxy. The reasons are numerous - in the Middle East, the iconography was kept within the Scriptural manuscripts to avoid destruction by Muslim rulers and it made for easy taking in the need to flee. There is a resurgence in the interest for Syro-Indian iconography/religious art, so this may become more common in the coming decades - but much of what is prominent in Indian Churches are paintings or photograph-like images - these aren't "icons" just religious art. The Sacred Heart images are common in India, mainly started in Catholic circles, but there isn't much objection to them being venerated by Orthodox (although these are rarely seen within the Church, Eastern Catholic or Orthodox) in their homes - as long as the distinction is made that the heart is meant to be symbolic of the Love and Mercy of Christ, not the actual physical heart.


I think they are a reference to the practice of 33 Qurbanas for some intention - one Qurbana for each year of Christ's life.
But it should be noted that one of the Indian jurisdictions has a Western Orthodox group within it (decades ago in the Goa region a Catholic priest converted to Syriac Orthodoxy and at least one parish remains) and they celebrate the Mass of Pope St. Gregory (Tridentine).



No problem, feel free to ask more! =)


I'm also not fully "comfortable" with this, but I leave judgment up to her hierarchy and superiors and mine haven't said anything negative - but I will ask the next time our bishop makes a visit.
But perhaps the idea is to make us a bit uncomfortable. I don't know.

It is by no means a "common" occurance, in either Orthodoxy or Eastern Catholicism .. but it's not all too common within Latin Catholicism either (slightly more common, but I wouldn't say enough to call "normal").

Brigid, feel free to ask more questions, I'm happy to answer what I can about the nuances within the Indian Church.

So I am still confused on this : ( .... Is this a western Syriac Church since you said the assyrians is a whole different topic. I think what you are saying is that the Malankara Orthodox are split in two , one follows the Syriac Jacobite Patriarch in Antioch, the other follows a native Indian Bishop, so the malankara are western syriacs? I am sorry, I have such a hard time getting all the Indian syriacs straight : ( .

Both Orthodox jurisdictions in India are Western Syriac. "Malankara" refers to a location, that is why both jurisdictions use the word in their title. It is kind of like the Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions, where each refers to itself as "Ukrainian Orthodox" and "Kyvian".

(The Assyrians are Eastern Syriac, there is a small remnant in India in communion with the Assyrian Church of the East, but it is not Orthodox. The largest Eastern Syriac Church is the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.)

Ok, that is what I was confused about. I always mix up the word Malabar with Malankara as to which one is the east or west syriac.

Sorry, I have been off the forum for 2 days. I noticed Chaldean Catholic had asked me some questions in response to my post 2 days ago. I am not sure now if my replies are relevent since Michael has provided more information on the Orthodox churches in India.

I am disagree that stigmata are part of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox tradition. So it looks like we are actually agreeing. Sorry I was writing late at night on Saturday so on reflection I think I made some unclear comments.


I have to agree with you here. You are right about this to an extent about me. But to explain further, I don�t know how to say what I mean diplomatically. I know from reading and meeting Indian Eastern-rite Catholic clergy when I was in grad school, that the Indian Eastern Rite Catholic Church was Latinized and now there are attempts to return to their roots. However, in India, the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches did adopt aspects of Latin spirituality such as the rosary, Sacred Heart, Eastern versions of monastic orders specifically the Jesuits and there may be other examples. Maybe this Latinization could prepare the way for stigmata which is accepted by Latin spirituality. In other words, they would not fell �uncomfortable� with stigmatists the way we Orthodox do.


I was speaking I think to the forum in general and trying to give an example of the similarities between the Syriac Orthodox liturgies and the Eastern Orthodox liturgies.

I was trying to show the desire of the Malankara Syriac (Jacobite) Orthodox Church to send their students for further study in Eastern Orthodox adacemic institutions in order to get closer to their Eastern roots. Just from my contact with members of this church in Canada, they have told me that they have been influenced by attending either Roman Catholic or Protestant primary schools and high schools in India. I remember a priest telling me how Anglican priests when they first came into Kerela would walk into Syriac Orthodox churches and actually remove icons from the churches.


I said the above 2 days ago before clarification of Mother Susan's church affiliation. Also from my reading of what Richard himself said below, it sounded to me as if Mother Susan was a private person (not a nun in a convent) who started her own private religious work that was not under the direct authority of a bishop. That is, her ashram was not accountable to a bishop but under her own authority because it was a private ashram.
Here is what Richard said:

You also mentioned St. Gregory Palamos:

This is not stigmata but a metaphor. For example, the AApostle Paul also writes about being "in travail" over his "little children"and we know this is symbolism and that the Aprostle Paul did not physically give birth to his followers.

Thanks very much indeed for your patience and courtesy in explaining the jurisdictional issue and the nuances of the Indian church. I know what you mean when you say that perhaps the idea is to make us a bit uncomfortable. However, I would make a distinction betweeen being made to feel uncomfortable by say, the knowledge of my own sinfulness, or the knowledge that as a western European I enjoy a more privileged lifestyle etc, and being made to feel uncomfortable by a spirituality which the teachings of the Fathers warn is fraught with dangers. For those who have not read about some of the other phenomena associated with Mother Susan, here is a brief extract:

'On Holy Saturday morning, under the influence of her power of grace, Sister Susan prayed that God's mercy shower down on the assembly of worshippers. The "manna", when it came, appeared sporadically in small flecks, none of them larger in size than a dime. The flecks came singly and in two's and three's, sprinkling at wide-spaced and random points upon a white veil
which had been spread to receive them, but also upon the floor and under the altar table before which Sister Susan prayed.
Seen very clearly in the bright, flourescently-lit room, they could only be described as materializing out of thin air. About half the pieces materialized directly on the floor. Other flecks would drop suddenly out of mid-air, several seeming to materialize directly from the flat silver cross held in the
nun's hands.
The flecks came during the nun's final 20 minutes of prayer: at first they appeared semi-transparent,like small flat bits broken from a communion wafer. Gradually -they seemed to swell, or push
themselves up, forming small crystalized granules, yellow and white in color. A total of about 21 small pieces of "manna" were finally collected and Sister Susan distributed five or six to those who attend her so devoutly during her times of pain. Flashing her radiant smile, she placed one of the granules upon my tongue. By now it had a rock-candy hardness. Its taste was fresh and sweet, but with an aftertaste more difficult to describe. As the author of Exodus writes (Ch. 16:31): It (manna)
was like a small white seed, and tasted like a biscuit made of honey�.

http://www.themercyfund.org/AMMACHY.pdf

Frankly this account of objects materializing from thin air sounded like something from a Victorian seance. I doubt very much that I would get a blessing from my Bishop to be present at this.

I have also had a look at the stigmatic lady in Damascus who promotes Our Lady of Soufanieh. On that site I saw the claim that since St Francis of Assisi in the 13th century there have been 300 cases of stigmatism, 200 of which have been in the 20th century.

http://www.soufanieh.com/1997.06.CANADA/19970628.can.eng.radio.canada.script.htm

Again, I think it would be a reasonable response from an Orthodox point of view to be cautious about a phenomenon which is(re-)appearing so strongly only in the last century.

Brigid

Like Brigid I also have read on the links provided by Mr Tasca - and I have to say I am also very very uncomfortable - and not just by the comments on things like the 'Manna'

I find it rather incredible that this 'nun' would wish her pain during the inposition of her Stigmata to be so very very public - he describes who she is held down during this.

Orest,

The traditional spiritualities of East and West Syriac Christianity is mostly public communal prayer such as Ramsha/Ramsho (evening prayer), and Sapra/safro (morning prayer).

Private prayers are allowed (whether borrowed from Latin/Greek/other), but these are not confused with public communal prayer which is primary. The Biblical Lord's prayer is prayed often privately, as well as, publicly in services. Lots of poetic hymns are found in our Churches, and some of the laity sing these hymns at home.

Our Churches are determining, and in light of the direction to restore our traditions, whether any borrowed prayers and practices organically fit with our traditions, but this is mostly with regards to public prayers, most especially the liturgy. Privately, the laity are free to give their preferences with regards any devotions.

Our roots in tradition/patrimony is not Greek (Byzantine, Constantinopolitan), rather, the two traditions of Antiochene (West Syriac), and Assyro-Chaldaic (East Syriac).


Thank you for the links. I am already aware of them, and I occasionally read them when I need to. There are similarities across all Apostolic liturgies. We have to be clear, though, that the Syriac Orthodox do not celebrate the Greek tradition of the Eastern Orthodox, rather, their tradition is West Syriac.


Their Eastern roots is not Eastern Orthodoxy. These West Syriacs must never be byzantinized. It is not appropriate to replace one "ization" (Latin) with another "ization" (Greek). These West Syriacs must remain faithful to their West Syriac traditions. Protestanism or Anglicanization must never touch the East/Orient!


With all due respect, I found this response unconvincing, but since St. Gregory Palamas is venerated in both Eastern Orthodoxy and Greek Catholicism, you guys know more about him than I do.

God bless,

Rony

Above (somewhere), Richard Tasca wrote:

"I strongly urge, therefore, that contributors refrain from spreading misinformation about something they know little about."

And I wholeheartedly agree. Admittedly, I have not studied each and every word written here, but I have skimmed it (after a few pages, I got a headache, forgive me). It's full of confusion and presumptions, and light on actual facts, and much of that is innocent enough, though not all. As a deacon of the Church in question, I can't say I know enough about all this to offer an authoritative answer, although I intend on learning more. But Richard Tasca's advice is good advice for all of us to heed, including Richard Tasca.

HOWEVER, without intending to encourage this further, I will say that the more one studies "Indian Christianity", it becomes clear that in many ways it does not fit the standard stereotypes or associations we have of the various "branches" of Christianity (e.g., East = Resurrection, West = Passion). It's in a category of its own in many ways and for various reasons, and so it's not as easy to pronounce on a given issue as some here seem to think, making the advice above all the more appropriate.