www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall How could this be allowed?

If only it were a joke. If only.

X. B.
Fund-raiser in Pittsburgh Saturday April 4 at 6:30 PM for the Kyiv Resurrection UGCC Patriarchal Cathedral. No mention of questions and answers being handled by competent representatives but a documentary film THE CATHEDRAL UNITES US ALL, language not specified, a duet of singers �Pysanky� will perform presumably in Ukrainian and a photo exhibit THE CATHEDRAL OF OUR UNIFICATION are advertised. Refreshment will follow at St. John Ukrainian (Greco) Catholic Church at 109 S. 7th St. (at Carson St. Southside) Pittsburgh, PA 15203 in the upper hall.

Look again, everyone. This dubious conference is said to have taken place in June 2006 - nearly two years ago. Now why did it take all that length of time to suddenly show up here on April Fool's Day of 2008?


One always does well to suspend one's credulousness on the first of April - there are numerous people Out There with a warped sense of humor. I still remember the time someone planted a story on the front page of the New York Times - also on April Fool's Day - alleging that Mother Theresa of Calcutta was demanding the ordination of women. Poor Mother Theresa was busy issuing denials for months. She should have sued the newspaper.

Gadzooks

Fr. Serge

It didn't show up on April Fools Day. The Times article came out on March 20, 2008. The Times article itself is about the "Radical Orthodoxy" movement and references the conference that was held in 2006 at the Catholic University of Lviv. I assume the conference is referenced because it was an important milestone in the movement and probably because the occurrence of an Anglican receiving communion at the hands of a Ukrainian Catholic Bishop is an example of "radical orthodoxy".

That the conference happened, including a divine liturgy, and with the guests in attendance is simply a matter of public record published on the web site of the Catholic University of Lviv itself.

None of this - the date, content or anything else has any implication of an April Fool's joke to me. It is obviously quite real.

[Also, I would not have posted any of this at all if I felt like it was a joke or a fabricated story.]

X. B.

Reverend Father Serge,

I have learned to respect you as a real priest, the kind we grew up with and knew because they went out amongst their people and tried to connect them with God. Your directives on this Forum alone is more time spent than most of the new breed do in this day and age. The wind have shifted and the new clergy eliminate anyone they feel can think or might challenge them. The old adage keep your friends close and your enemies closer is not their MO, its resistance is futile. Thy downsize into a band of followers and if they have to sale our historical landmarks and architectural monuments it is God�s will, not their fault. Such recourse gives them a cash flow they can put into better use, at their agenda. If the roof is leaking, they bye new vestments which can go with them. As you know we can go on with these exploits for pages.

We asked why and no one answers. The only clarification we ever get is the definition and usage of the term �Orthodox� backed with quotes from Patriarch Josyf (Cardinal Slipyj), and that this is the way the Pope wants us to be good Catholics. We wrote the boss and these boys are still here playing priestly bullies. One known business trick to assert your importance is to manipulate the subserveant�s time.

Even if their are some items misreported I don�t think these articles are an elaborate April Fools Joke. Then again I don�t think all the upheaval in the hinterland is poor episcopal administration. Why would a letter from Kyiv concerning clerics in Lviv be read in a parish church in Pittsburgh prohibiting aid or welcome? Forget the 19c. Ukrainian / Rusyn Magochi smokescreen, even during the Pittsburgh Iconoclast Heresy this never happened. This 21c. power play hides behind high liturgical functions. While all the bicolor flags look similar, the front line seams to be Slovakia and the power base was moved from Lviv to Kyiv where the banks can cash the US checks faster.

Yes Orthodoxy is radical when based on Augustinian and Aquinas logic, St. Josaphat probably would not have directed his followers to embrace Eucharistic adoration outside of the Divine Liturgy, perhaps Pope Adrian and Saint Methodius had dreams of a bi-ritual Slavonic Church, so bring these out into the open and let us study, discuss them. We are financing seminaries in Lviv, cathedrals in Kyiv but at what cost? Will our own parish church have to disappear for their good?

This is beyond my poor uneducated peasant mentality of understanding, so please arm chair theologians out there jump in, you are welcomed to help me understand. WHAT�S HAPPENING?

Mykhayl

Dear Mykhayl,

Compliments are usually welcome, and I appreciate yours - thank you. As to that statement of Patriarch Joseph's on the use of the term "Orthodox", the English translation often found is my own (done at a time when I knew much less Ukrainian than I do now). But it has nothing whatever to do with the sale of historical monuments and architectural monuments - or the failure to fix the roof!

The issue of the April Fool's Day attack on Bishop Hlib (whom I have known since I was a young priest and His Grace was a young seminarian) almost certainly has nothing to do with the issue of the four dubious "bishops" (I hedged that slightly, because it is just possible that some supporter of the vagantes started the April Fool's Day attack in an effort to muddy the waters).

Why was the negative statement regarding the vagantes read aloud in a parish church in Pittsburgh? I don't know, and I have no way of knowing. I can assure you that I have no intention of reading it to the congregation here in Dublin or putting it on our web site; I don't consider it edifying. I might change my mind, though, if it came to my attention that the vagantes and their supporters are seeking to cause trouble here.

But in any event, that some parish priest in Pittsburgh saw fit to read this out to his congregation does not indicate that the priest (whose identity I don't know) is playing "priestly bully". Or is there someone or some group in our around whatever parish this is who is/are using the vagantes in an attempt to cause trouble? Again, I don't know.

You write that some twenty-first century power play "hides behind high liturgical functions". I like high liturgical functions myself. But I would be inclined to say that the more power-mad types are unlikely to like high liturgical functions - they usually prefer home-made DIY liturgical functions where they can pretend to be Saint John Chrysostom.

As to the Pittsburgh Iconoclast Heresy (your term), allow me to refer you to the Archeparchial Statutes of Philadelphia, in which Metropolitan Constantine made it crystal clear that iconoclasm was not on the agenda for the Archeparchy of Philadelphia.

Saying that is a serious charge. It is also unwarranted. I have known the present Patriarch Lubomyr since 1960. He has never been a money-grubber; Studites in general are not chasing money, nor seeking enjoy lives of indolent luxury at the expense of the rest of us. The Patriarch struggled - successfully - for the restoration of Kyiv to the Church's title, and moved his residence to Kyiv, not for money or power, but to establish that this is a Ukrainian Church, not just a Galician Church, and that Kyiv is its proper center.

I would suggest, by the way, that it's relatively easy (especially for anyone with an American passport) to cross the Polish border, where he will be inside the European Union and can negotiate US dollar checks with little or not trouble.

Why should your parish church disappear? I am unable to offer any opinion, since I don't know what parish you belong to. The diaspora Church is in trouble, particularly demographic trouble - and that is no secret. I have some strong opinions as to some of the causes of this, but I think I'll save them for another time (count your blessings; I am seldom so reticent!).

It is true that the wind has shifted. This is not unique to the Ukrainians, or the Eastern Churches, or the Catholics. The expectations know put on the clergy are different than they were, say, sixty years ago, and the system of "formation" (not my favorite word) has not kept pace. I could certainly tell you areas in which I feel inadequate, and I would not be surprised if other priest feel the same way.

Almost certainly, this posting will not satisfy you - and for that I apologize. I've done the best I could in a small amount of time with insufficient information. If you wish to send me a PM, please feel free to do so.

fraternally yours in Christ,

Fr. Serge

There is an SSPX chapel in Pittsburgh, perhaps they have been nosing around the Ukrainian parishes in Pittsburgh? Even if they are not nothing wrong with a pre-emptive strike because I am sure these illicit bishops will be writing America for money and support before too long.

Fr. Deacon Lance

X. B.
Father Serge,
Thank you for again trying to redirect my frustration for my own good. My apology for my smart mouth giving his Beatitude a undeserved and unintended slap. Father Deacon Lance may have shed light on a potential development. The interest of fringe groups would find fertile ground with the dissatisfaction amongst the laity here. Without a home at home they may be beguiled by an illicit hierarchal request to support the faith of their fathers at home. Its worked here successfully in the past, several times.

Mykhayl

Dear Mykhayl,

Father Deacon may indeed be right. The woods are full of dubious bishops of uncertain provenance who seek to deceive the faithful. There are even some in Ireland, of all places (and I am glad to report that they are accomplish almost nothing). In England, and some other countries of Western Europe, they are a plague.

Fr. Serge

X. B!
X. I. X!

East of Pittsburgh I noticed a new �OUR SAVIOR ORTHODOX CHURCH Moscow Patriarchate� by its marquee. It appeared to be a church flanked by a hall and school. There was one golden cupola with a three armed cross on top for difference. I thought; great marketing. Instead of an old building hidden in an inner-city ghetto this was accessed off a highway with ample parking. If it didn�t work eliminate the cupola and sale it to another church, center or organization.

Then came reality, with the defections from the self important �Radical Orthodox� in some of the local Ukrainian Greco Catholic parishes, where is the �Society of Saint Josaphat� (Byzantine SSPX)?

This is the second time you have posted this and the second time I don't understand it... You saw an ex-prot church that got bought by a Russian Ortho congregation and you had a revelation about what that means for Greek Catholics?

Among the few I know who know of the SSJK a fewer still are sypathetic to them. Even in the pirohy belt of Cleveland or Pittsburgh I am doubtful there is enough manpower to jump on a move to erect a fourth or fifth golden dome in neigborhoods like McKees Rocks where one parish is now FIVE - BCC, UGCC, UOC, OCA. ACROD....

Now you think, Mykhal, that one of the 7-12 ish men who have been ordained to the priesthood in Poland for Ukraine by a schismatic Latin bishop is going to be sent over here to organize a parish or ten of disaffected Byzantines? Nah. They will go Orthodox or to another Catholic parish - BCC to UGCC, UGCC to BCC, or maybe just throw in the towel and go Latin with their Polish spouse.

I just don't see the time, money, or manpower available (clerical or lay) for a rash of alternative parishes... wherever we are strongest, there are already plenty of options.

SS

Laying the cards down so forgive me if this is blunt. If a locally inactive Moscow Patriarchate (not OCA) can start a new presence in the old coal mining region east of Pittsburgh it is possible. I know nothing about their particular history. I do know history can repeat and we know Orthodoxy in the North Eastern US was established by Tsarist agents working with disgruntle Greek Catholics by making them feel important. Today�s people are business oriented so new ventures can be marketed successfully. Most of our established churches are in inaccessible, unsafe, inner-city areas with crumbling aging buildings. In this area the largest religious group are Catholics and the second largest are ex-Catholics, including Greco Catholics. Vacant churches are plentiful.

A priest buries grandma but without a Divine Liturgy as requested, he angers an entire family. A year ago their choice was go Orthodox which means embracing yet another�s version of your customs, going RC and embracing customs strange to you or going totally different to the Protestants or not at all. The priest is banking they will come back Christmas or Easter as all the above choices are not happy ones. I can tell you most haven�t coming back.

Now there is a new option, a couple disgruntled families with (tax deductible) assets can group together, purchase a base which is available to the suburbs, is easy to find, has parking in a safe area. They run the business end and have accountability. There is a glut of Priests in Europe find one who�s style is what you like, send him for people skill and language schooling. Join the SSJ episcopate and play church your way. Smart marketing will keep you successful. If people come out of church dissatisfied they now have recourse. Yes the other side always looks greener but if your grass is drying and the people paying for it have no say your dying.

Bottom line you get more flies with honey than vinegar. You don�t have a monopoly any more. There MAY be a new player in town who if smart will be an accommodating salesmen not despots. Its not too late for damage control. Send the new clergy to classes teaching people skills not merely theology. A good administrator delegates and lets his staff run the business end including the troubleshooting. The pastor need to be a friend father not a dictator. WWJD? Would Jesus have buried granny with a Liturgy? Would Jesus have cared if His sermon on the mount was running long? Would Jesus have blessed baskets of food for the unchurched on Saturday or saved it for His cronies on Sunday?

Mykhal,

Question, what parish are you talking about? I searched several Orthodox parish directories including the Moscow Patriarchate's listings. The only Orthodox parish near Pittsburgh listed on the Moscow Patriarchate's website is one in the Erie area. That is not a suburb of Pittsburgh.
So what parish are you talking about exactly, in regards to this Moscow Patriarchate church in the suburbs of Pittsburgh you speak of?

That is a lot of conjecture as to what the reality of the parish you saw entailed.

Having lived in Pittsburgh and spent an appreciable amount of time in Cleveland, I can offer that if any group wants to set up shop in a 5th or 6th overlapping jurisdiction - if they want to build in anger... well good luck to them, they will need it.

Anyone with fantasies of starting yet another jurisdiction and doing so as SSPX Eastern-Rite or alternative oversite Greek Catholic according to their particular proclivities... Well the market is limited and frankly the idea of schism till we get what we want has been tried - and found lacking.

X. B!
C, I, X!

Sorry I was not driving, I was a passenger going to Dixonville. From the bus this fresh presence toped with a three armed cross caught my attention and I thought �good, a sign of growth, smart presentation�. On the way back I looked for it and noticed the sigh �OUR SAVIOR ORTHODOX CHURCH� under which read �Moscow Patriarchate�. I thought that�s different. Then I thought for the rest of the hour and a half (yes a traffic jam on a Sunday, go figure) back to Pittsburgh. �Why, these mountains are dotted with our churches�?

Yes it was all conjecture from there. But conjecture with a David and Goliath ending. Why do you think we have so many overlapping jurisdictions? People believe what they want. The priest listens attentively to the pyrohy workers like they are professors or treat the guys playing janitor like they were the cantor and the cantor as if she was wanted and they will follow him into schism. Why do you think they thought there is a Russia west of Ukraine? Because it is better to be a big fish in a small pond than a little fish in a big pond. A good committee makes the priest look like a Moses, a good priest doesn�t let the parish workers and comities think they are wasting their time. Arrogant clergy has never been an attribute, it is the fools (not idiots) for Christ who get halos. Even if it is speculation now the Greek Catholics have a proud Uniat option.

PS Pittsburgh and Cleveland are two different peoples like if one was Lemko and the other Boyko.