www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A common date for Easter when???

Andrew,

Yes, I was getting off on a bit of a tangent there.

I'm still trying to get a better understanding of this calendar (or rather, this Paschalion) thing. From an intellectual standpoint, the Gregorian Paschalion is a slam-dunk, except that the Aleppo proposal would be even better. After all, that stuff about the rhythms of the celestial spheres, etc. really was brought up at I Nicaea, and that was the supposed basis for the Alexandrian system, which was chosen by that council for the entire Church. From a Western mindset this makes perfect sense, and the failure of the East to embrace this simple idea leaves them scratching their heads.

From an Eastern mindset (as I understand it), however, the problem is that 1600+ years have passed since that time, and the current practice of the EOC now has the virtue of all those years of continuous usage (with no one ever suggesting that it was in conflict with the mandate of I Nicaea). It has long been part of the identity of the EOC, and the EOC could not abandon it without ceasing to be who they are. In other words, however important the question of astronomical accuracy may have been in 325, that really isn't the issue anymore.

While I don't entirely agree with this latter perspective, at least I can respect it. What I don't respect is Easterners trying to argue that their Paschalion really is more accurate, etc., etc. It seems to me that these simply fail to appreciate the uniqueness of their own tradition, and keep trying to make it something it's not.

This, then, becomes the reason for all the heated debates, and--I think--Deacon Anthony's frustration. If we can shift the focus of this topic to answering the question of why tradition is so important in the East, then we can go on to have a real discussion.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

X. B!
C, I, X!

So many threads�

Today April 6 is either the Sunday of the Myrrh-bearing or fourth Sunday of the Fast. A typical Pittsburgh event occurred in Dixonville, two hours east of the metropolitan area. The �Ukrainian Cultural Trust Choir� sang a Lenten meditation of seasonal hymns in a mix of Slavonic, Ukrainian and English. The typical part of this event was that even though only half of the choir members could make it, it occurred. Many Catholics members, all Gregorian Calendar observers could not contribute due to customary Easter banquets in their parishes, the ones who could come had their �Sviachene� last Sunday. Half of he Orthodox, all Julian observers had other charitable commitments. The bottom line a beloved cleric by the Catholics and respected Dean of the Orthodox Father George Hnatko requested it.

Today in his fiftieth year of priesthood he worked the crowed as usual like a politician. Dropping names of whom he knew for recognition �Yes I am a cousin of your bishop through Irene from Carnegie. No connection to his Canonsburg family or the other bishop though��. Those he didn�t know or remember he found some common ground to connect with while dragging any potential leader along showing them his technique. He started a needed half way houses, openly rejected customs he thought was unchristian and promoted other activities like the comemoration of Akcija Wisla when the Catholic clergy was squeamish.

Here were many people he knew were celebrating Pascha singing Lenten music. Common people unlike many important can adapted according to the local custom �When in Rome�� What was important is not the passion nor the resurrection but the message of Christian brotherly love. Why are we to be rubber stamped carbon copies? We all realize there is often two Paschas, and two Christmases and many celebrate both. Already I have cuts of meats from Easter frozen to be used for Pascha. Pascha bread will be baked again for the other side of the family in a few weeks. Those who could celebrate Easter did and those who could not have a second chance on Pascha like nurses and service people. One friend goes with his family to the in-laws for Easter and his for Pascha, when there together it is not as congenial as expected. This is life. Overlook the ancient prejudices and celebrate Christ whenever we can with whoever we can. If Saint John wrote his Paschal homily today he may have said �If you are pious and a lover of God and came for the first, delight in the festival. If you be an honest servant and come for the second rejoice for the Master is munificent and receives you even as the first. If you came for both partake of the rise Christ as the Angels rejoice�.

You have answered your own question:"I recognize he did not specifically says this, but I am following the logic of his statements."

I did not say what you conclude, and your logic is faulty.

You say "I am specifically trying to understand Deacon Anthony's viewpoint."

Thank you. Let me be sure I understand yours, one step at a time. You say "If Nicaea I approved a method of calculating the date..."

Did it or did it not? If it did, what was the method in its most basic form?

Dn. Anthony

You and some others do not simply prefer the Julian calendar. You make preposterous and unfounded claims about it and then get upset when you're challenged. When you're asked a direct question about your claims, you don't answer it.

Since you have directed this to me, I ask you to reconsider your evaluation: where, and how in what I've written, I have not shown "a modicum of toleration".



I challenge you to read the first post of this thread and then tell us who is asking whom to change.

I challenge you to read the first post of the most recent previous thread link and then tell us who is asking whom to change.


"Better"? The Julian calendar "better." Have you not read or understood anything I've written?


Dn. Anthony

Where? I'm serious. Where?


Where? I'm serious. Where?


Dn. Anthony


ps Please be specific.

Father Deacon Richard responds to my (accurate) account of the deprivation of grade-school children of their lunches, with:


There is no "probably" about it - I know some of those who were grade-school children at the time, and they most assuredly still remember it. One is now a Greek-Catholic priest. He's bigger, heftier, and more agile than I am, but is also even more firmly committed than I am to the Julian Calendar, so I don't advise calling him names.

But enough of Chicago for a while. Consider Saint John Chrysostom Church in Pittsburgh. It was the last remaining parish of the US Ruthenians to retain the Julian Calendar. Bishop Nicholas regarded this as a personal affront (never mind that there was already a new-calendar parish in easy reach) and simply ordered that the Julian Calendar be abandoned and the Gregorian Calendar imposed.

Bishop Nicholas succeeded, if you could call it success - the litigation he precipitated went all the way the US Supreme Court! You may easily imagine just how expensive that was (and guess who paid?). You may also imagine how many of the parishioners simply walked out in complete disgust (Pittsburgh has no lack of Orthodox Churches to welcome those who still wanted to go to Church). The phrase "pyrrhic victory" comes to mind.

As I said yesterday, there is lots more.

Fr. Serge

The Alexandrian system was the agreed upon mechanism put in place by the church, which the traditional paschalion continues to abide by. Unity has been maintained by those who continue to follow it, and variance by those who have over time deviated from it. It followed the spirit of Nicaea in terms of a baseline way to calculate the date of Pascha, but accepted there could be variance from the actual equinox date. No calendar is without a level of astronomical imprecision. The paschalion is a basis for regulating the commemorations, feasts, fasts and liturgical life of the church. It has become wedded to the tradition of the church. To alter, amend, or change the calendar would mean to disrupt this cycle - to drop commemorations, truncate or delete fasts and so on.

A site I go to most every day is this one; the eternal church calendar of the Serbian Unity Congress

http://www.serbianunity.net/spc/kalendar.html

I think the name accurately reflects what the calendar means to the life of the church.


Okay, then I will ask you what I think your logic points to and you can answer the questions as you see them. When you said


It is hard for me to imagine you think there is an excuse for any Eastern Catholics to continue not using the Gregorian calender. But I will ask, what excuse do you think there is? What would you like to see done in your own communion?

I try to choose my words carefully and so ask that you allow me to stand by what I actually say (or correct it) in the actual context and with the actual nuance. So, I did not use the word "excuse" to answer what is hard for you to imagine I did answer, but I did answer:


I would like to believe this shows at least a "modicum of toleration" for the situation: "There is, I would think, an understandable desire to celebrate Pascha together in regions with a sizable or majority of Orthodox. The maximum discrepancy of about a month is not that drastic so far, but it will get bigger."

Regarding the word "excuse" and where I did use it in the above quote that you provide, in response to a different question in a different post of yours: Please parse the "Given..." statement. There are three givens and a conclusion. I say Christians and not EC's; I never use the term Gregorian; I do not specify who has to change to any particular calendar; I only conclude there is no excuse for us not to be able to reach an agreement. It seems this is in accord with Nicea -- but I'm not sure what the position is on this point because I hear from Julian calendar advocates conflicting views on the necessity of a uniform celebration. I do not of course require you to defend the views of others. Please, however, do not conflate my different posts to produce what I do not say.


Dn. Anthony

X. B!
C. I. X!

"What would you like see done in your own communion?" quote AMM

Free will.

Let each parish decide how their community would serve God and His people best. (Fair vote not just the priest's will or the committee's mandate).

The calendar in the link is very nicely done and, consequently, it shows something so clearly -- that the two calendars are exactly 13 days apart. I don't understand how you can then say: "The paschalion is a basis for regulating the commemorations, feasts, fasts and liturgical life of the church. It has become wedded to the tradition of the church. To alter, amend, or change the calendar would mean to disrupt this cycle - to drop commemorations, truncate or delete fasts and so on."

A simple, constant displacement of 13 days between calendars does not produce any disruption of the cycles and observances you mention. This is why I do not understand the concern indicated by some that the "Orthodox" typikon is somehow violated by the Gregorian calendar. It is not. There is a small variation produced by the lunar reckoning, but it should be on the order of the present variation of the cycles etc. within the Julian calendar itself from year to year.

Why do you think there is a separation of 13 days? Where does it come from?

Dn. Anthony

Andrew,

I am extremely disappointed that you ignored every one of my comments--even the one you included with your answer, which you did not say anything about.

The problem here is not a "degree" of imprecision, but a continual drifting over the centuries that has caused a 10% error to become an 80% error!

This is why I said that the Orthodox Paschalion has taken on a life of its own--its value is strictly traditional and can only be rightly understood in light of that fact.

That's what I was saying, it has long been part of the identity of the EOC, and the EOs could not abandon it without ceasing to be who they are. I don't disagree there, in fact, that is why I would like to shift the focus of this topic to answering the question of why tradition is so important in the East.

However,
Not only is this an inflammatory statement, it is also a distortion of the facts. The reasons behind the Gregorian reform are well known, as are the dates of its implementation. You may reject those reasons if you choose to, but please don't pretend they don't exist!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Father Deacon Anthony


And where EC's are a minority?


Getting all Christians do agree on anything, let alone identifying who "all Christians" are, is probably an impossible task. What is more feasible I would say is trying to get all members of one communion to agree on something. You feel strongly about the need for unity on a single method of calculating the date of Easter, so that's why I asked if you think it is acceptable for members of your communion to celebrate Easter on different days. I don't think it is a great leap of logic or twisting of your words to ask the questions I have.


In order to get the calendar reconciled with the best astronomical calculations you would have to do what the Gregorian reform did, and that is remove days from the calendar.


I believe it is the leap year issue.

Father Deacon Richard


I apologize if I didn't address something in your post. I read most of your comments as statements and not questions to me. I felt like your main question was why is this tradition so important, and I tried to address that in my reply.


I'm not sure how you're getting the 80% error calculation.


Tradition is the reference point of the church, which is why it is such an important part of the discussion.


This tradition specifically, or do you mean that in a general sense?


Wikipedia says the following


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

My statement was not meant in an inflammatory sense, but is imply a matter of fact statement in line with what Wikipedia states. The deviation from the accepted method of calculating the date of Easter did again cause disunity around the celebration of the date. That is irrespective of any merits of the change itself.

I also think I have fully acknowledged the reasons for the differences between the two calendars.

It seems to me that there are two sides in this "war of words" and neither side is on the same field of battle. One side is citing tradition and pastoral reasons, the other sidereal time and adhering to the spirit of an �cumenical council.

While I agree that the reasons for using the Gregorian Easter are compelling, it seems that pastoral prudency would say otherwise. In the Western Church, we Latin Catholics have seen some abominable things happen to our liturgy and liturgical life due to changes mandated from above--and often foisted upon the faithful with great insensitivity. Many Latin Catholics left for the Eastern Churches or Anglicanism (of some fashion) in droves, or simply stopped going. We are still dealing with the repurcussions of these decisions to-day. Now it seems that our Eastern Catholic brethren are dealing with similar issues, but perhaps you could learn a thing or two from us this time.

Until last year, priests had to have a special indult to be able to celebrate the Traditional Roman Rite Mass. In most (but not all) dioceses, the local ordinary established a few strategic parishes to host the "Latin Mass Community" that was attached to the older use. It was probably their thinking that it would quietly die out. But look what happened! More and more young people, fed up with the tackiness of the liturgical abuses in most places, rediscovered it. Now there is a whole movement of young Traditional Latin Mass Catholics who feel like they have been cheated out of their rightful inheritance. So much so that the holy Father issued the motu proprio allowing priests to say the Traditional Latin Mass without any special permission.

Perhaps the Eastern Catholic Eparchies can each establish a few parishes that do things the old way... And then we can put the Easter debate on hold for a couple of millenia until Eastern Easter starts to occur in September.

Certainly there is a distinction - and an important one - between "Tradition" and "traditions". Nobody would seriously claim that the use of certain recipes for cabbage are directly part of the Faith.

And yes, Nicea I did mandate the celebration of Pascha on the same Sunday. Those who have unilaterally violated that mandate are responsible. Those who retain the Julian Calendar have done nothing of the kind.

But back to my series of what happens when an Eastern Church decides to "compromise":

In the later nineteenth century, the Holy See placed strong pressure on the Melkites to adopt the Gregorian Calendar. Unable to resist this pressure, the Patriarch and Synod reluctantly gave in. The immediate result was a huge schism, which persisted for a decade or so, but it was a bit pointless, since the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch retained the Julian Calendar at the time. So the upshot of it was that the Melkite Greek-Catholics lost about 50% of their faithful. This is not my idea of "progress".

There is still lots more!

Fr. Serge

Actually, I don't in terms of what I've written and my "mission" as I've explained it. I respect Nicea's mandate for unity, have commented in favor of it when asked or to clarify my position, and believe that an objective evaluation of the facts can -- should be able to -- produce a unified understanding and observance. I assure you that is not my motivation or predetermined objective. If you review my interventions in the last three threads on this calendar issue I believe they will show that my concern is to get details and facts correct and to understand the consequences.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstood.

I say, look at the data, the facts, the Julian calendar has grown to a 13 day error in keeping ~March 21 fixed on the vernal equinox as Nicea wanted etc. etc....I'll spare you my saying it all again. The response is something like, how dare you insist I change my beloved Julius Caesar version of the calendar, and I can tell you horror stories about those forced to change, Nuns depriving children of food, and I suspect that the Julian calendar really is more accurate after all, NASA uses it [remember that one]...


Dn. Anthony