www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A common date for Easter when???

The logical conclusion of what you're saying is that Eastern Catholics have no excuse not to follow the Gregorian Calendar. Which is why I asked, do you advocate they all adopt it?

All I am "requiring" is a modicum of toleration. If you will leave me and others who prefer the Julian Calendar in peace, you may celebrate on 32 February for all I care.

But there is something in the New-Calendarist mindset that absolutely cannot stand the very thought that someone, somewhere, retains the Julian Calendar. Is it possible that this comes from the lurking suspicion that the Julian Calendar might just be better?

Fr. Serge

Fr. Serge,

I don't think Deacon Anthony is being intolerant of you or anyone else. He is trying to discuss this subject on intellectual grounds, whereas your comment about time zones and the International Date Line just sounds like plain old sarcasm to me.

Once again, these statements are nothing but rhetoric, and lead one to suspect that your position cannot be defended from an intellectual standpoint.

Having said that, though, I will concede that perhaps there is more to this issue than merely how best to interpret the will of the Fathers of I Nicaea. You have stated that the prayers of the Typicon do not align properly with the Gregorian Calendar--would you care to elaborate on this?

For my part, the most compelling argument I have heard thus far for the Old Calendar is the fact that the candles in Jerusalem always light miraculously at Vespers on Holy Saturday--Old Calendar.

This calendar issue continues as a symbol of the division between Churches, and will probably remain as such until other, more significant issues are resolved.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Andrew,

I don't think Deacon Anthony is saying anyone has a "right" or an "obligation" to follow one calendar or the other. He is merely trying to point out the inconsistencies in statements made by some proponents of the Old Calendar, and to encourage some real intellectual exchange on the subject.

His comment that "there is no excuse for Christians not to observe what we all accept on the same effective day" seems to me to be an expression of frustration that this issue continues to be one more thing that divides us.

As I'm sure you're aware, being an EC is a rather strange position to be in, since you're following essentially the same ceremonies and traditions as the EOs with whom you're not in communion, yet you're essentially following none of the ceremonies and traditions of the RCs with whom you are in communion. Also, your sympathies are often in line with the EOC rather than the RCC--go figure.

In other words, please be indulgent with us if we can't manage to settle on a single calendar!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Deacon Richard accuses me of "just plain sarcasm". Thank you . . . but actually it is reductio ad absurdum.

Others as well as myself have provided an abundance of intellectual discussion of the matter, only to be met with emotionalism and the constant, unwavering demand that we should set aside our adherence to the Julian Calendar, so that there can be "one common Easter" for everyone. I have never been able to grasp the alleged importance of this. But I am quite suspicious - make one concession to such pressure, and the next demand will follow (perhaps the demand that we should all use "one common lectionary", so that we should all read the same Biblical lessons on the same day?).

Given the choice between pluralism and coercion, thanks, but I'll take pluralism.

As to those who apparently cannot put up with having (in most years) one date for Easter and another for Pascha, please bear in mind just who changed the calendar and who did not. You want a "common date"? It has always been available and is available now. I expect to celebrate it in a few weeks' time; feel free to join me. If you prefer not to, that is neither my business nor my worry.

Fr. Serge

Dn. Anthony,

I think the issue was and continues to be the fact that the Gregorian Calendar came out of "heterodoxy" and is deeply steeped in a "heterodox" mindset. Indeed, before we can talk about "all Christians" celebrating Pascha on the same day, we first need to achieve universal acceptance of the notion that we are indeed all Christians!

Furthermore, while surely there are many within the EO communion who do accept RCs and ECs as being "Christian" in some way, this can hardly be called the "official" position of the EOC. Such a position can only be arrived at by the consensus of the faithful, and could take several centuries. But that is a different discussion.

The important thing is that you had asked for an intellectual discussion of the reasons for favoring the Julian Paschalia, and yet here you are, making the inflammatory statement, "there is no excuse for Christians not to observe what we all accept on the same effective day."

The adherents of the Julian Paschalia have a different sense of tradition, and believe they are following the mandate of I Nicaea because it's been done that way for over 1,000 years. I prefer it when they keep to that statement (which many of them do), rather than try to "prove" the rightness of their position and repeat the same old arguments that are manifestly untrue.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Fr. Serge,

Let me begin here, because with this I agree 100%. However,

No. "reductio ad absurdum" requires that your conclusion follow logically from your opponent's premises. The fact is that when the calendars do coincide, everyone agrees that we are celebrating Pascha/Easter on the same day and no one tries to argue otherwise. Furthermore, you know that, and cannot possibly believe what you're saying.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I've been following this thread, and it seems the emotional responses are coming from the partisans of the Old Calendar. Example:

Perhaps because the Council of Nicaea mandated the celebration of Pascha by all Christians on the same day?

No. No council ever mandated such a thing.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Deacon Richard, my comments are not a criticism of your church that there is variance with the calendar used. I am specifically trying to understand Deacon Anthony's viewpoint. If Nicaea I approved a method of calculating the date, and stressed uniformity of that method; and in light of Deacon Anthony's statement that there is no excuse for not observing a single date or following what Nicaea I said - my question is specifically to him. What excuse do Eastern Catholics have for not following the Gregorian calendar in his view? His statements would lead one to believe it is inexcusable that they do not follow the Gregorian. I recognize he did not specifically says this, but I am following the logic of his statements.

Fr. Serge,

You seem to be forgetting your best argument: tradition. The Julian Calendar is part of the ecclesiastical traditional of your church. There is no more compelling argument than that.

Faithfully,
Miguel

I agree, that's why at the very least, the Greek Catholics who left the majority of other Greek Catholics and went on the Gregorian calendar should see the error of their ways and return to the Julian Calendar. You do realize that the majority of Greek Catholics follow the Julian Calendar right?

Monomakh

There is Tradition and there are traditions.(There are those who seem
not to make the distinction.) The dating of Pascha falls into the latter category.
In the case of my own parish, which
is mostly non-ethnic, it would be highly inconvenient for most
of us to follow the Julian Calendar, so we are Gregorian, and
none of the ethnics among us seem to mind. Our former pastor,
now serving various groups of Eastern European emigrants in Spain,
was Gregorian here and is Julian there. Which is as it
should be.

The business of the dating of Pascha has been the cause of much
turmoil, dispute and uncharity within and among the Churches
over a great many centuries. It would be nice if we could all agree
to celebrate Pascha at the same time but, as that would only make
for new heartburnings, leave it alone.

Edmac

In terms of quality, tradition is certainly the best argument. But in terms of convincing effect, it might be somewhat better to describe what actually happens to Eastern Churches that make the mistake of getting involved with the New Calendar. I hope no one would seriously wish us that particular kind of "deja vu all over again".

Fr. Serge

Perhaps a sample would help. In the absence of Bishop Jaroslav (Gabro), Father Walter Paska, who has administering the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Eparchy of Chicago, suddenly took a decision to change the calendar in Saint Nicholas Cathedral, Chicago.

At the time, Saint Nicholas was perhaps the largest Ukrainian Greek-Catholic parish in the USA, and had a good-sized parochial school. On the first day of New Calendar Lent, following Father Paska's decision, the Sisters in the school methodically searched the lunches which the children had brought from home and which the parents had provided. Any lunch which proved to contain meat was immediately thrown in the garbage - by the Sisters. Note that the Sisters did not just throw away the "contraband", but the child's entire lunch. So the child had no lunch that day.

Not content with this artificial famine, the Sisters also "explained" to the children that the parents were backward, uneducated, and so on.

Unfortunately, I am not making this up - there are plenty of witnesses to prove it. That's only one example; there are lots more.

Fr. Serge

Talk about straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel!

A relatively small thing, namely Lenten discipline (and the fact that it involves a level of confusion due to calendar change makes it that much less significant), is used to justify an egregious violation of the law of Charity--an act of cruelty that will probably be remembered by the children for the rest of their lives!

Unfortunately, I do not see this as purely a calendar issue, but an indication of a larger disease that still lurks within the walls of the Church--the subject of another discussion!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Precisely! And we Latins have suffered from this disease as well...