www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A common date for Easter when???

In this I fully agree with you. I think you should use one or the other.

The assertion that NASA does not use the Julian Calendar is a nonsensical word game - reminds me of the claim that the Iliad was written, not by Homer, but another blind Greek poet of the same name.

In any event, the use of the Julian Calendar for our liturgical purposes long antedates the United States of America, and should the USA for some reason go out of existence, I venture to predict that there will still be Christians maintaining the Julian Calendar.

Are we required to celebrate Pascha in the Spring? Just what do you think Christians do in Australia?

Fr. Serge

Forgive me if I read anger into your responses. The internet is odd in that way.

I am not a scholar or a theologian. I have heard arguments regarding both calendars. Was there not something in the works called the Aleppo statement?

Anyway, the Julian calendar feels right to me. I know that is not logical or scientific. I am not a science person and it hurts my head to crunch numbers. Christ was crucified after the Jewish Passover. This seems important to me. And so after the first full moon after the vernal equinox after the Jewish Passover feels like the proper date.

Oh yeah, and the miracle of the Holy Fire every year in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on Holy Saturday---Julian calendar.


I know that none of my explanations will suffice for someone with your superior intelligence--but that is all that I can offer to you.

Again, forgive this wretched sinner for accusing you of being angry. I cannot discern the written word properly on forums.

Perhaps, but you can bet your bottom dollar that we'd have far more RCs complaining (I'm thinking about 1,000 to 1 here) about having to celebrate Christmas in January than we would about their occasionally having to celebrate Easter in May. (The EOs and ECs could do whatever they like in this regard--the agreement would only be about the Paschalion.)


Believe it or not, I really think once we get past this "us vs. them" mentality, the problem will actually work itself out--provided, of course we do get past it. ("With man, this is impossible, but with God all things are possible!")

Of course, if we don't get past it, the union will break up in no time, anyway ...

FWIW, This won't happen till the middle of the next millennium.

Millions of EOs (and many ECs as well) are staunch in their adherence to the notion that they and they alone have been faithful in every respect to the mandates of I Nicaea (call it "invincible ignorance" if you will). I don't think we should be willing to sacrifice unity on this point, and furthermore, I don't think the Fathers of I Nicaea would have wanted us to!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dear Father Deacon Richard,

An excellent point.

However, would it not be prudent to use the argument of tradition on the question of the date of Easter, meaning that the old way is the best way?

In addition, did not that Council lay down that Easter must follow the Jewish Passover, quite apart from the scientific calculation/loss of days argument?

Finally, the practice of Rome to change this or that tradition that was codified by an Ecumenical Council did not begin with the Paschal date issue.

Did not an ecumenical council upbraid the Church of Rome for moving the Wednesday weekly fasting day to Saturday and demand that Rome return to the ancient apostolic tradition of the Wednesday and Friday fasts?

If the practice of Rome to break with tradition is a way of affirming the primacy of Papal authority OVER that of an Ecumenical Council (for argument's sake), then that is a more serious concern for all the Churches concerned and affects the very heart of the enterprise of ecumenical unity.

One would hope that the most ancient of traditions in this and other respects would still be "good enough" for contemporary Christians.

The UGCC now has two Paschal celebrations and this is simply a tragedy. I attended an Easter celebration with members of my wife's family and was even asked to intone "Christ is Risen" as no one felt they could sing . . . as if I can . . .

Our Eparch is formally on the new calendar but celebrates both Easters liturgically.

It is much better for a Particular EC Church to have ONE Easter celebration. Since the Old Calendarists won't change, and the New Calendarists change for purposes of "convenience" as is the common argument here, they should see the nonsense of having two calendars within one Church etc.

This would never have occurred if we remained as an Orthodox Church. As EC's, we've grown accustomed to picking and choosing traditions based on our mood, convenience' sake and the like.

A real tragedy.

Alex

"Reminds me of the claim that the Iliad was written, not by Homer, but another blind Greek poet of the same name."

That's almost as bad as those who have said Christopher Marlowe was Shakespeare. They did not answer why Marlowe would save his best writings for a pen name. Doctor Faustus is no Hamlet; Hero and Leander turns pale against Venus and Adonis. There was a higher order of creativity in Shakespeare which was beyond Marlowe's reach.

Terry

This is no word game. You originally brought up NASA and its use of the Julian calendar. The Julian calendar was named after Julius Caesar. The Julian Date was name after someone else but even it were named after Caesar it is still fundamentally something different. To assert as you did

Forum #256787 - 10/15/07 12:30 PM


is wrong, incorrect , not valid, misleading.




???

Christians in Australia who use the Gregorian calendar celebrate Pascha on the Sunday following the first full moon after the northern hemisphere spring/vernal equinox.

So I ask, what is your understanding of the necessity to follow the commonly noted directive of Nicea that Pascha be essentially the first Sunday after the first full moon (actually the ecclesiastical full moon but the point is that it is a northern hemisphere early spring, near but after the equinox, full moon) after the northern hemisphere spring equinox?

Surely you have understood this unless you also understood that Nicea was allowing for Pascha in the northern and southern hemispheres to be celebrated 6 months apart.

Dn. Anthony

Dear Father Deacon,

As usual, your attempts at argument are very nearly impenetrable, not to say incomprehensible. Are you, for example, seriously suggesting that NASA is using the Julian Calendar (or the Julian Date, if you prefer) for religious reasons?

But it's time for yet another account of the damage the Gregorian Calendar causes.

This one began in the nineteen-fifties, when Pittsburgh - and, although not quite so firmly, Philadelphia - decided to start imposing the Gregorian Calendar. This was about as popular as a live hippopotamus at a formal dinner. Substantial numbers of people left for Eastern Orthodoxy, which in most cases meant what was then called the "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of North America" and is now called the "Orthodox Church in America" - right, that's the OCA. Never a dull moment.

But life rolled along for a few decades. Then, around 1980, the OCA decided - you guessed it, to impose the Gregorian Calendar (oops, I mean the "New Julian Calendar"). My spaniel could have told them what was likely to happen - and it did. All the usual depressing routines - litigation, parishes pulling out, refusing to pay their assessments to the OCA (sound familiar?). Johnstown made it clear that it would accept parishes of Carpatho-Russian ethnic background. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia tried to be peaceful, but Syosset threatened to take them to court. Archbishop Laurus (as he was then) responded: "What, again?" and hung up the phone.

Vladyka Laurus was quite careful - he saw to it that when any parish expressed any interest in joining the Church Outside of Russia, it was made clear that this mean a normal Church life; beginning with priests to come and hear Confessions. Perhaps to their surprise, the faithful found that they liked this approach. The OCA lost some of its most historic and important parishes - including Mayfield, where the first "All-American Sobor" had been held, with Patriarch Tikhon presiding.

For a while, things calmed down after some time had passed. Then it became clear that Moscow and the Church Outside of Russia were serious about reconciliation. The OCA was not happy about this, and attempted to demand that every priest who had left the OCA in favour of the Church Outside of Russia must go through a "canonical process" on a "case by case" basis. The Patriarch was not amused. If you watch the reconciliation Divine Liturgy, you will notice that the OCA was conspicuous by its absence.

A few months ago, the Church Outside of Russia held the centenary of that first All-American Sobor", with Metropolitan Laurus presiding, in that same church in Mayfield. Priests of both the Church Outside of Russia and the Moscow Patriarchate served together, very gladly and gratefully, with the parish priest and the local Moscow Patriarchate Dean to the Metropolitan's right and left.

The moral of this one is that the Gregorian Calendar did no good to the Greek-Catholics, and then did no good to the Orthodox Church in America. Instead, the people who provided a refuge to the aggrieved parishioners and congregations have been rewarded. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear!

Fr. Serge

Father Serge, Deacon Anthony�s arguments are neither impenetrable nor incomprehensible to anyone willing to examine simple, scientific evidence. I have also posted some basic information showing that the Julian Calendar and the Julian Date are not at all related, and that NASA does not use the Julian Calendar at all (for any reason, scientific or religious). I recommend that you re-examine these posts. I must ask that you refrain from continuing to state that they are the same since that is false information. If you for some reason really cannot understand the scientific data then I recommend taking what I have written at face value, or contact someone at NASA for an explanation. As it stands, your posts are coming across as intentionally malicious since the issue is a simple one.

There is nothing at all wrong with acknowledging the scientific inaccuracies of the Julian Calendar while at the same time arguing that it should have been kept by all Eastern Christians � Orthodox and Catholic. The two are completely separate issues. It is not the Gregorian Calendar that harmed both Greek Catholics and Orthodox. The harm came from those who sought to force it upon others who did not want it. To place the blame on a calendar is rather silly. The blame for the problems caused by the calendar change belongs to those who used force to obtain it.

Thank God for that "nearly." Given my success in this thread I would conclude that you are stating the correct perception.


No.

The Julian Calendar is not the same thing as the Julian Date/Day. It is not a matter of preference.

NASA does not use the Julian Calendar.

It is, therefore, incorrect to say, as Fr. Serge Keleher said in a previous thread:


That is NASA does NOT use "the Julian Calendar for anything which requires sidereal time." NASA does not use the Julian calendar.


Dn. Anthony

Evidently, Father Deacon, you have a religious conviction that the use of the Julian Date does not imply a use of the Julian Calendar. While there is no logical basis for this distinction, there is also no point in arguing about it, any more than one would argue with people who have a quasi-religious belief in astrology.

Fr. Serge

Fr. Serge, the short answer is that it, "that the use of the Julian Date does not imply a use of the Julian Calendar," is a fact based on the scientific, historical and rational use of the terms; it is not religious or quasi-religous.

Dn. Anthony

Admin's Note: I think it is pretty obvious that Father Serge is not interested in a serious discussion on this issue. The science regarding the calendars, and the differences between the Julian Calendar and the Julian Date have been explained in the most simple terms. I know Fr. Serge to be an intelligent fellow and know he understands. What I do not understand is why he would purposely taunt others to the point of making himself look malicious.

At this point Father Serge has ruined this thread, and shown himself in a poor light. I am sorry for that and apologize to Forum members and readers for letting this charade go on for so long. I invite serious posters to take a break from this discussion and, if they desire, to start a new discussion after a suitable break.