www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall A common date for Easter when???

I'm well aware that NASA uses the Julian Calendar - which might just indicate that those of us who also use the Julian Calendar are not hopelessly obscurantist. It certainly indicates that, like NASA, we are concerned about sidereal time (ever hear of the Star of Bethlehem).

But back to my theme.

Sometime around 1965, the parish priest of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church in Sault Ste. Marie, which at the time was the only Ukrainian Church in town, took it into his head to change the calendar. Result? Simple: there had been no Ukrainian Orthodox Church for miles around. Now the Ukrainian Orthodox have a thriving parish in Sault Ste Marie, because the Greek-Catholics built it and fill it with people. Ecumenical, no?

Next result: not even for the sake of reconciliation in the parish will the people who (however reluctantly) followed their then pastor (who has been dead for more than thirty years) and accepted the Gregorian Calendar return to the Julian Calendar - that is, apparently, too humiliating.

And there's lots more!

Fr. Serge

Dear Fr. Serge, Do I understand that priests could change the Calender on their own,without at least a blessing from their bishop?As for the nuns in Chicago telling children that their parents were ignorant or uneducated for supporting the Julian Calender,isn't that all too similar to what Soviet teachers would tell children whose parents were believers.My own sons attended St.Josaphat Cathedral School in Parma,Ohio from 1983-90.My older sons classmates were all Ukrainian,but besides two Ukrainian Orthodox students,at least one girl in the class attended Pokrov Ukrainian Catholic Church which followed the Julian Calender.I remember this because I used to wait with other parents and grandparents to pick my sons up after school.One year,Pascha was in early May and the girl's mother said most emphaticly that her daughter would not be participating in the May Procession Monday night because it was Bright Monday for her!

Please, everyone, NASA does NOT uses the Julian Calendar. Saying it does is a prime example of misunderstanding the facts. This has been pointed out to you before Father -- are you just trying to be funny?

Dn. Anthony

Deacon Anthony is correct. NASA does not use the Julian Calendar. It uses the Julian Date (JDN). This morning, for example, at 10:37, Monday April 7, 2008 (UTC) the JDN was 2454563.9423611. The remainder of this value divided by 7 is 0, an integer expression for the day of the week with 0 representing Monday. It is essentially a decimal version of the date with a starting time of noon, Jan 1, 4713 BC.

The term "Julian Date" is also commonly used to refer to "ordinal date". Today's date under that method is 98 in the year 2008. There is an interesting article on this at this link [en.wikipedia.org]. although wikipedia sites tend to have mistakes this article looks fairly accurate.

---

This discussion seems to be all over the place, and a bit of apples and oranges. The fact that forced change from one calendar to another could result in all kinds of problems (church splits) is certainly a consideration for not changing calendars. Yet is has nothing to do with a legitimate discussion of the scientific discussion of a particular calendar itself. The ideas put forth at Allepo are still available online. [oikoumene.org]

This is basically a correct assessment (days would actually be added to the Julian calendar e.g. Julian April 14 would become April 27 and thus 13 days would appear to be lost/removed). That you are aware of this, you must also realize the consequence: that the Julian calendar is keeping time in such a way (with an accumulating error) that the presumed date for the equinox, Julian March 21, is 13 days off from when the equinox actually happens, it is moving this demarcation of spring into the summer and since the paschalion tables are linked to it, Pascha is being moved into the summer along with it.

The whole point of a calendar is to keep the seasons synchronized with the dates. As we approach March 21 (the equinox at the time of Nicea and corrected to such and held fixed by the Gregorian reform) we should be anticipating the beginning of spring and then the celebration of Pascha. Instead for the Julian calendar, as we approach its March 21, we should be anticipating the beginning of spring but we will instead, as the error continues to build (it will take some time true) be experiencing summer etc. and the celebration of Pascha in that season.

Is that OK because tradition (it is argued) is being followed? Why is it not preferable for Pascha to stay put as the spring feast it was intended to be rather than be on the move into other seasons?

Dn Anthony

At the risk of appearing dense (who? me?) I fail to grasp the essential difference between using the Julian Calendar and using the Julian date - which is, obviously, determined by applying the Julian Calendar.

The reason why NASA uses whichever one cares to call it is simple enough: NASA is concerned for accurate sidereal time, and for that purpose the Julian Calendar is more accurate.

Fr. Serge

Dear Father Al,

I grieve to report that several decades ago - and in some places even now - priests were/are able to change the calendar purely on their own, without a blessing. After the Sault Ste. Marie debacle, Bishop Isidore of Toronto forbade any further introduction of the Gregorian Calendar, and never again gave a blessing for it.

Many people at the time in Chicago complained that the way the clergy and the Sisters were speaking to their children was quite similar to the way Soviet children abused the children of the faithful.

Ugh!

Fr. Serge

Forum Post #256802 - 10/15/07 02:03 PM

The Julian Date used by NASA has nothing to do with the details of Julian Calendar. It is not determined, and never has been determined � by applying the Julian Calendar. It is simply a progression of days with a starting time of noon, Jan 1, 4713 BC. 2,454,563 days have passed since then, so today�s date (April 7) is 2454563. Nothing more to it that that. From a scientific view, it has absolutely nothing to do with any other calendar, although simple calculators exist to convert any calendar to/from the Julian Day Number. In fact, that is how it came into being. It was created by French Protestant scholar Joseph Scaliger in 1583 as part of an investigation of ancient systems of determining ages and calendars (the way different ancient cultures calculated time). In counting up the days from a fixed starting point he was thus able to coordinate a number of different calendars. For an astronomer, one can see that it would be very useful to convert the history of the sky from a number of cultures that use myriad calendars to a continuing count that has a precise fixed starting date.

OK, I'll admit that was a ballpark figure. Based on the table from the WCC website that Deacon Anthony referred us to, the current "error" is only 72%. (We could, however, count only the years in which the calculation is off by a whole month as errors, in which case the error factor drops to only 36%.)

As demonstrably inaccurate as this is, it will still be workable for some time yet (Pascha won't start falling out in June till about the middle of the next millennium). In the meantime, the cause of unity might well be served by having Rome switch back to the old way of reconing.

I wouldn't expect this to happen, though, till we're a lot closer to resolving some more serious issues.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I have written "amen" because I agree with my brothers in Christ (Fr Serge, AMM, and others) for a preference of the Julian calendar. and in turn you castigate me. Why must you be so angry?

At a pastoral level, and for the cause of unity, I think this would be a workable solution. It would not make the Julian Calendar accurate, or preferred, but would allow unity in the celebration of the Resurrection. Such unity would be a powerful witness to the world.

Recluse,

You are entitled to agree with them and I said your Amens are fine as your prerogative. I accept that you have "a preference of the Julian calendar." I criticise a position that I try to demonstrate is wrong but do not castigate you. I am not angry and don't see why you would think so.

If I am not understanding them and you, do me the kindness of just answering the question I raised about Fr. Serge's post to which you have said "Amen."

The original posts:


My question to Fr. Serge which he did not answer but which I ask and hope you will:



My question to Fr. Serge via your Amen to you:


Thank you in advance.


Dn. Anthony

How would this play out in detail: Gregorian users repeat 13 days to realign with the Julian calendar? The mixed Gregorian-calendar-Julian-paschalion is a disaster so I'm presuming that is not the way to go. For how long would this all Julian calendar solution continue? Indefinitely is OK if having Pascha move out of the spring is OK; and of course all fixed feasts are also on the move relative to the times (seasons) when they now occur. Is it OK for Pascha to move out of the spring season? What of the Nicea's reference to the vernal equinox? If not indefinitely then how long and switching to what?

A lot of questions but I from the "God is in the details" school.

Dn. Anthony

Fr. Serge (et al.),


I hope that you are now aware that NASA most empahtically does not use the Julian Calendar. It would be good for you to acknowledge this since it is an error that you have made before and having been informed otherwise, have now repeated. Have you ever considered that the horror stories you're telling us about the change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar are rooted in the fact that respected leaders like yourself have given the faithful faulty information which then just continues to be repeated until it has the presumption of truth?

Each of the most recent three threads on this calendar issue have been fueled by such false presumptions. They are (at least in part):

1. NASA uses the Old/Julian calendar (OC). FALSE
2. The OC is more accurate. FALSE
3. The OC follows Nicea. FALSE
4. The Gregorian calendar violates, does not follow, Nicea. FALSE
5. Pascha must follow Passover. FALSE
6. Nicea wanted Pascha to follow Passover. FALSE
7. Our calendars are synchronized with sidereal time. FALSE
8. The Orthodox typikon is not compatible with the Gregorian calendar. FALSE
9. Use of the Julian calendar and Alexandrian tables were required by Nicea. FALSE
10. The Gregorian calendar is conceptually heterodox. FALSE




Your words not mine, but your premise (above) is wrong. So ask yourself...


NASA should be concerned about sidereal time but our calendars have been, are, and presumably will continue to be based on tropical time. Here again a term, sidereal time, is flung out, it seems, without understanding its meaning and consequent irrelevance to the issue it is supposedly addressing. This also shows why it really should not be considered permissable -- is abnormal -- for a calendar to have a seasonal event like Pascha migrate from its reference point (as in the Julian calendar).

Yes, I've heard of the Star of Bethlehem.


Dn. Anthony

ps And no "Ten Commandments" wise-cracks.