One across the board English Divine Liturgy usage for all North American Orthodox Catholics English language users would be nice. Another for the King�s English as my Canadian cousins tell me the two are not a common tongues.
Churchill commented that England and the US were two peoples separated by a common tongue . . .
Thanks for all the links to the Lord's Prayer in numerous languages! I really enjoyed and found it very enriching to listen to them. How in the world did you find all of those?
As I recall my earliest experiences with UGC liturgical practice (now nearly fifty years ago), a recited Divine Liturgy was not all that unusual. In those days, the Liturgy was celebrated only in Slavonic and the cantor (a relatively recent arrival from Europe in my home parish) could not be there for all Liturgues. While the congregation felt comfortable singing along with the "djak," it was less comfortable singing without him. The result was that it was not uncommon for a weekday Liturgy to be recited (sometimes, sad to say, by the priest alone).
As time progressed (still during the 'Slavonic-only' era) there evolved the practice of our congregation's singing some of the Liturgy and reciting the rest. I think I also recall a less-acceptable variant of this in which the priest continued reciting silently some parts of the Liturgy which would ordinarily have involved a priest-people 'dialog' while the people sang some of the longer liturgical hymns, e.g. the 'Yedinorodny'.
As Slavonic gave way to Ukrainian and to English in the parishes I attended, and various "private-use-only" versions of the latter were being tried out, I recall a reversion to the recited-Liturgy form from time to time while workable musical settings of the new translations were being developed and sought out. In that regard, the UGC seemed to have a more flexible approach to the use of different versions of the Liturgy than seems to be the case now in the Metropolia. Not quite a Maoist "Let a thousand flowers bloom" approach, but also not "My way or the highway."
While I certainly recognize the venerable tradition that calls for our Liturgies to be sung, and while I appreciate the beauty of liturgical music and the valuable support it gives to our worship, I have to confess that there are times when I seriously question whether it fulfills its stated goals. Slavonic, sung by cantors and choirs who have no idea of the meaning (or correct pronunciation) of the words they are singing is, to say the least, disedifying. English, chanted by lector, deacon or priest in a way that robs the sacred text of all meaning and fails utterly to convey the majesty or meaning of the words of Scripture, makes me wonder if we might not allow at least the readings to be "read".
I would welcome thoughts on two points with which I concluded my previous post, in which I noted that, hile I certainly recognize the venerable tradition that calls for our Liturgies to be sung, and while I appreciate the beauty of liturgical music and the valuable support it gives to our worship, I have to confess that there are times when I seriously question whether it fulfills its stated goals.
1. Slavonic, sung by cantors and choirs who have no idea of the meaning (or correct pronunciation) of the words they are singing is, to say the least, disedifying.
2. English, chanted by lector, deacon or priest in a way that robs the sacred text of all meaning and fails utterly to convey the majesty or meaning of the words of Scripture, makes me wonder if we might not allow at least the readings to be "read".
I would welcome insights from other communnities that have grappled with these matters
1. Slavonic, sung by cantors and choirs who have no idea of the meaning (or correct pronunciation) of the words they are singing is, to say the least, disedifying.
2. English, chanted by lector, deacon or priest in a way that robs the sacred text of all meaning and fails utterly to convey the majesty or meaning of the words of Scripture, makes me wonder if we might not allow at least the readings to be "read".
I would respectfully ask a question about each. How would one know that the people singing do not know the meaning of the Slavonic? Could you describe further what you mean by chanted in a way that the text is robbed of its meaning? I really can't think of a case except mumbling where this would be so. Thanks
1. I know the cantors and the choir members in the parishes where I hear this. Most of them evidence, at best, a tenuous grasp of what they are singing. Their pronunciation confirms that they are simply trying (inadquately, to my ears) to reproduce a sound without attaching any meaning to the sound. Merely sounding "foreign" is not the same thing as pronouncing correctly. Slavonic is a language, not just a sacred ritual, and there are accepted ways of pronouncing it.
2. Mumbling certainly does rob text of meaning. But that is not the whole story. Compare, if you will, a professional recording of scripture read by someone who respects the text and tries to convey its meaning, with the necessarily flat effect of chanting that text in accordance with UGC or BCC usage. Chanting is simply not the way English-speaking people read aloud if they want to convey the spirit of a text.
I'm in a Ukrainian speaking Parish - everything is in Ukrainian - readings and all.
BUT when you have a number of folk in the congregation who do NOT speak Ukrainian then you have to consider using the vernacular - if that is sufficiently understood by all.
We use no English in the Liturgy - and most can manage many of the prayers and responses - and yes at times pronunciation [ mine ] will leave a lot to be desired - but no classes - so how can we improve ?
None of us are perfect - but we do our very best - we need help - but that means that someone has to volunteer to help - can you do that for your Parish ?
Now as for readings - when in Church I do these every week after they have been chanted in Ukrainian.
I do not read in a monotone and I honestly do not feel that many people do. I was a reader in the RC Church before I went East , and I read for about 10 years and taught other folk to read there - and no-one as far as I am aware read in a monotone.
I have slowly learned to Chant the Epistle - it takes me a long time to prepare it - but I do it and it can be done in English - I wnant to do it better but I'm not ashamed by my efforts.
Sadly now I'm not able to get to DL as much as I would like, but I'll be there [ God Willing ] for Pascha - and believe you me I'll be chanting the Epistle then and I will be heard at the back of the Church without the aid of a microphone either .
If you are concerned about the standards of language pronunciation etc - then you really should try and offer your expertise to help improve things
I attended Sunday Divine Liturgy at a Ukrainian Catholic parish in Cleveland a few years ago. It was all in English, and it was all sung.
Perhaps there are more music resources for English speaking parishes in areas where there is a larger concentration of Byzantine Christians? I am not very knowledgable about this.
I attended Sunday Divine Liturgy at a Ukrainian Catholic parish in Cleveland a few years ago. It was all in English, and it was all sung.
Perhaps there are more music resources for English speaking parishes in areas where there is a larger concentration of Byzantine Christians? I am not very knowledgable about this.
The publishing of the wonderful Anthology will be helpful to many in singing the English Divine Liturgy. It has some excellent and easy to use settings.
The Divine Liturgy in my opinion should be a prepared orchestration in the cathedral, connoisseur orthodoxy in the monasteries and tangibly pragmatic in the parishes. By the way I believe you can have all three in the same building depending on the crowed, need and artificial downsizing is scandalous. In the parishes if you don�t use it you will loose it. I doubt anyone in my parish speaks Greek yet �Christos Anesti� can be sung at least once every Paschal Season Sundays. When we intone Kyrie eleison I wonder how many think we are using Latin? When Slavonic is used by the choir it is because that is for which words the coral music was written and it fits. When a composer is writing for his immortality there is one Slavonic usage (several pronunciation variances but one text). In Ukrainian there is the Catholic Our Father and the Orthodox version (keep the basics in Slavonic). English is a whole other ballgame with extra innings for (Spanish). When the people chant Slavonic for many it is from phonetic retention like the Latin Mass would be for the R C over 50 crowed. In the 1050�s Slavonic sermons were already questionable but not Liturgy. With a good cantor it may be reminiscent of NAME THAT TUNE, but it floats. We grew up when that was all there was so we learned how to adapt our prayer lives accordingly. The Liturgy is where we welcome the King not just a repetitive scripture verse class. The vernacular especially for the �readings� was a solution worked out between Pope John VIII and Saint Methodius in 873 (we need church history classes besides just bible study), they were to be in the liturgical language repeated in the vernacular. Probably back then it was Greek and Slavonic while today it could be English and Ukrainian, or French and Spanish. Liturgy is not as much of a problem as the other lesser used services, if you want the people to participate you better give them a script and it better be in a user friendly version they can read like Slavonic in the Ukrainian or English alphabet. In the prayer book published under Metropolitan Ambrose (Senyshyn) there was the Slavonic and directly under each word Latin phonetics. I have wondered if we did the same with the English words putting Ukrainian phonetics under them how painless we could teach that alphabet. I'm not saying we should have an instant translation box over the royal doors reminiscent of the opera, but I'm not discarding the idea.
At my father-in-law�s requiem Liturgy the priest recited a good chunk. Fifteen years ago the grandchildren were scandalized as they never seen it in �our� church before in "all their lives" (the parents who grew up with it stayed out of it). To them it was Roman Catholic not ours. Today even with R C exposure during schooling when they go to church it is to one of ours, as recitation worship doesn�t cut it for them. You like what you know and you know what you use. If only 3 sing �Khrystos Voskrece� on Easter if you keep it up you may have 40 by Ascension, and nearly the whole church next year. Familiarity is comfortable and there is pride in knowledge, if you sing �Christ is risen� when they are use to �Khrystos Voskrece" you may do a solo. Innovation is threatening so don�t start with the creed.
God bless the cantors or priest that believe preparing for a service is more than sticking a card in the page of the reading. When I go to a service and HANDED a book that gives me the Slavonic for the Slavonic segment, Ukrainian for the Ukrainian and English for the English I am happy, if there is a translation good. If the words are transliterated on a second line it is great. If there are �local� rubrics explanations and footnotes to scripture references superb. In America we are smart peasants and may have Latin and Protestant connections. Stop complaining, bye stock in a paper company and start printing, organic starts at the parish so it is our responsibility not the Vatican. The Vatican safeguards orthodoxy (and that�s another topic).
When we intone Kyrie eleison I wonder how many think we are using Latin?
Don't laugh! For reasons not immediately relevant, I was once invited (here in Ireland) to serve Divine Liturgy in a Latin parish church - entirely in Greek. I felt like the best-dressed elephant in the zoo, but I assembled my chanters and did as I was asked (we at least read the Epistle and Gospel in Irish). There I was, wondering what on earth the congregation (of 200 or so) could possibly have thought was going on.
As it turned out, the congregation was convinced that this was an old-fashioned Tridentine High Mass (what we would now call the Extraordinary Form). At first I thought they were putting me on, but it was so unanimous and the people were so grateful that it was obvious that they believed what they were saying to me.
I put my mind to it, and realized what had done the mischief: the two words "Kyrie eleison". Somehow their ears latched on to that, and they remembered where they had heard it before. From there, it was a short leap to the false conclusion.
The Byzantine Forum provides
message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though
discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are
those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the
Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the
www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial,
have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as
a source for official information for any Church. All posts become
property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights
reserved.
Which parish was it?