www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News In Kosovo, Orthodox Churches burning

Dear Alex,

Well then, on 'Greater Serbia' we both agree. I travelled to Muslim countries a generation ago and I was not impressed, so my sympathies have never been with the non Christians. When I'm in Toronto next time to visit my brother I will have you over for dinner at his place in Mississauga. He and his wife will confirm to you that I had predicted a 9/11 a generation ago. "And why would they like to destroy us ?" they would always ask over the years when I would mention the dire prediction. The best explanation I could give was: "if they destroyed the prosperity of the west, then their societies would appear better off. By then appearing better off than the Christian societies, they could say that God had blessed them and not the Christians". I know it sounds dumb, but it's what I had experienced in my conversations and travels.

Hritzko

These attacks are also occuring in Macedonia as well. No doubt many in the Orthodox Christian population of Serbia, Kosovo, and Macedonia already see the War on Terror for the sham that it is.

It's not the USA, it's the Protestant religion.

Evangelical Protestantism is not better than Islam, they're way too different from Apostolic Christians. They prefer to save and support others (Muslim, pagan, Hindus) but us.

When are we gonna realize that these guys are not Christian and that they're our enemies?

I doubt very much that the reason why Canadians pay less than Americans for their drugs is that the Pharmaceutical companys are giving the Canadians at lower price for the drugs, I think it has more to do with government subsidies, in other words the Canadians are paying for their drugs through their tax bill...

[/QUOTE]Do you really think that the situation is any different for security ? If the USA forced Canada to pay it's fair share of North American and Global security costs, you would be living in a cardboard box. And if you don't think that it cost 'gazillions' of dollars - money Canadians do not have - then think again.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

But there is the world really safer after the "adventures" of the Americans? Ask the Spanish, I think they'll give a clear answer of their opinion....

Christian

Dear OrthodoxSWE,

I'm sorry you have your doubts about drug pricing in the USA and Canada. I spend my days working on long term pharmaceutical business plans for the USA, Canada, Europe, and the rest of the world. It is very public information that Canadians claim to have less disposable income than Americans and therefore ask that the drugs sold in their country be priced proportionally (ie: much cheaper than in the USA). There are very few exceptions. The Canadian government does not provide subsidies for drugs. The Canadian government pleads poverty and regulates (down) the pricing to reflect the disposable income of the nation. The Americans say - "o.k. we will be nice guys and sell you the drugs real cheap".

What happened in Spain is tragic indead, but is nothing compared to the 'death' that the NAZIS and Communist brought to Europe. There will be battles which will be lost, but the overall quality the Spaniards have has never been so high.

Better than asking the Spanish, why not ask the Ukrainians whith an estimated 14 - 20 million dead in this past century from the NAZIS and Communists attrocities if life could have been different. Nobody came to their rescue when women, men, and children were being starved to dealth by the millions in 1932 - 1933. America is recognizing this attempt at genocide and is doing all possible to help the people there come out of years of oppression. The Ukrainians were waiting for the Sweedes to help, but it seems the Sweedes are too busy being neutral.

Better than asking the Spanish, why not ask the Europeans how life would have been if the Americans had not liberated it from the NAZIS ? They were waiting for Sweeden to come to the rescue but that country was too busy being neutral.

Better than asking the Spanish, why not ask the Europeans how life would have been if the American had not implemented the Marshall plan immediately after WW2 to rebuild their economies and keep the 'Russian Communist bear from taking a walk' to Western Europe. They were waiting for Sweeden to come to the rescue but that country was too busy being neutral.

Sweeden, much like Canada, enjoys a unique geographic environment which can keep it isolated and neutral from fanatics such as the NAZIS, Russian Communists, and the Muslim radicals. Just like Canada, the Sweedes have other nations do the dirty work, then they claim to be 'better than thou'.

Canadians have in the past few years come to terms with the fact that their country is irrelevant on a global geopolitical basis. There has not been a single Canadian news group or think tank which has not come to this very same conclusion. Perhaps it is time for the Sweedes to take the rose coloured glasses off.

Hritzko

Dear friend,

the Nazis and Communists have nothing to do with the present situation.

I'm glad that the US joined the WW2 against the Nazis (but bear in mind they only did it AFTER they themselves had been attacked). The war would not have been won had it not been for the USA and the USSR. But still, grateful as I am for this, it doesn't oblige me to support the foreign policy of the Bush administration.

Or do you as an American feel obliged to always agree with the French because they helped you out during the American war for Independence??

I live in Sweden, but I'm actually born of Norwegian parents (my mother is part Swedish though) and I am a Norwegian citizen, and Norway is not a neutral country and we do know what occupation and war means (We've had both Nazis and Soviets on our soil).

But it doesn't matter where I am from or where I live, I'm still entitled to have a different point of view than George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeldt! And it doesn't mean I consider myself to be "holier-than-thou"!!!

So stop talking about how lazy and privileged and bad the Swedes and the Canadians and whoever it is are, AND DISCUSS THE ISSUES INSTEAD!

Keep in mind that there are alot Americans who oppose Bush, and there are even Europeans and Canadians who support him...

Christian

BTW, I'm changing my profile to "OrthodoxScandinavian" to include both my Norwegian and my Swedish background...

I agree with what has been posted and with orthodaox Catholic. Anyone who wants to understand what is going on should try to find "The Ugly American" There is a movie made of the book written in the 50's warning abaout our messed up concept of a foreign policy and how it could lead to starting and involvement in a disasterous war in Southest Asia. It stared Marlin Brando as the Ugly American is was very good. The central theme is that the USA looks for a quick fix, pushes countries into long terms disasters the goes away wondering why it is not loved. Really Americans believe that everyone elso loves them and wants to moave here and be just like us.. Everybody wants our kind of Democracy. A few learned philosophers have refered to the USA and an adolestent nation and culture we haven't been aroung long enough but act like teenagers. I am trying to work on improving my typing skills. I thank the forum for its patience with me

Dear OrthodoxScandinavian,

I never knew the Soviets occupied Norway. Was this during the Soviet attack on Finland in 1939-40, World War II or afterward. Thank you.

In Christ,
Anthony

Alex,

It's hard for your country to rule the world and make no mistakes.

Naturally, Canada wouldn't know. Even Mother England is basically just a U.S. subsidiary, and has been for a while.

But, in all seriousness, you have a good point. It would be foolish to try and support all of the U.S.'s actions of late. We really need to re-evaluate some things.

Logos Teen

All of the current events in the territory of Kosova need to be understood in the context of "a cycle of abuse."

We see similar cycles in the victims of sexual abuse, who go on to prostitute themselves and abuse their partners and children.

We see it in the children of drug addicts and alcoholics, whose propensity to repeat their parents' behavior is extremely great.

We see it in victims of domestic violence, who translate the the abuse that they receive onto their children, siblings, friends or neighbors.

It is not for naught that the Lord says that "the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children even unto four generations."


So, in Kosova, we are looking at invading Slavs led by Avars originally persecuting Illyrians (Albanians) 500-900 AD. We see the Slavs and Albanians persecuted by the Ottomans 1300-1900. We see Serbs persecuting Albanians, especially in the 1940s & 1950s and again 1989 through to the attempted genocide in 1999 (the results of which I witnessed personally while in Albania). Now we see the Albanians persecuting the Serbs in 1999-2004.

Does this sound like a cycle of abuse?

The participants of this forum will consume much energy in vain attempting to discern the reasoning that the world's leaders use in all of these and the related matters. Having worked as a staff member in the US Congress, I think that I can say that the Gospel is not part of most members' consideration when they cast their votes. I would venture to say that the same could be said of the Parliamentarians in Canada and Europe. In short we should remember that "the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God." And even worse: "Satan is the Prince of this world."

Only forgiveness (accepting Christ's cross) can end the cycle of abuse. As long as we hold the other and his children to the sins of their fathers, the cycle continues. This is what the Muslims don't accept (a God who becomes incarnate and accepts a humiliating death) and what the Christians betray regularly (in theory, acting as hypocrites by calling themselves Christians).

The Patriarch of Belgrade and the Archbishop of Tirana (also having the ancient title of "Exarch to Illyria" and thus exercising some authority in the current ecclesial vacuum in Kosova)) have spoken repeatedly, clearly and beautifully on these matters in relation to the Gospel of Christ. May God grant them both many years!

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Dear Teen Logo,

Canadians don't RULE the world and have no desire to.

Canadians EMBRACE the world and our multicultural society is proof positive of that!

Alex

Alex...

Speaking as an American...

You are right. In Canada's multi-ethnic cities there is more civility abd less tension...it is there, but not like USA...

You are right...we cause shameful problems by assuming everyone wants to be American (If people see American tourists in Europe, the ONLY response is "Whatever makes us think they want to be like US? Why they want their children growing up with our "values"...or lack thereof..

BUT we also do much everyone is willing to ignore, as you say. It balances out...we do hope.
But what can one do but be more sensitive to other cultures on an individual level (AKA not spit on them while travelling...respect people as Christ intended us to do...and not rush policies for mercenary reasons over right ones) Perhaps then USA will have more respect in the world.

Dear Gaudior,

God bless America!

Alex

Andrew,

First, on your use of the term �Kosova;� Kosova is the Albanization of the name �kosovo polje� or field of blackbirds. The name Kosova means nothing in Albanian, other than being an Albanization of a word foreign to them. I suppose it would be like asking Alex how things are in THE Ukraine.

Your brief history is filled with the common (errant) over-simplified understanding of the history of Kosovo.

The Slavic Christian and Albanian Muslim treatment under the Turks is not analogous. For instance, the Christians had to pay a �blood tax� (the Turks stole their children to be raised as Muslims in Turkey) while the Muslims did not.

I don�t think anyone with knowledge of 20th Century Balkan history can claim that the Albanians in Kosovo received anything but relatively decent treatment before and after communism. Under Hitler, they could kill and rob all Jews, Serbs and Roma. I�m not sure which Serbs were oppressing the Albanians in the 1940s. Do you mean the ones fighting the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS 'Skanderbeg' or 'Skenderbeg' (Albanische Nr.1)? I guess they should have just let Hitler win and checked in at the Hotel Concentration. By the way, Hitler is an important factor allowing Albanians to become the majority in Kosovo.

Under communism, they received their own university in their own language and, after the 1974 constitution, Kosovo was administrated primarily by ethnic Albanians. If they have a gripe post 1974 it should be with other Albanians, not the Serbs. Indeed, it was Serb culture and claims to Kosovo that were violently supressed under Tito. The reasons Milosevic invaded had a great deal to do with the pressure he was receiving from Serbs who had been forced from their homes; a forced removal that began BEFORE Milosevic was even in power.

I also notice that you don�t mention the uncontrolled illegal immigration of thousands of Albanians into Kosovo trying to escape Albania�s brutal communist regime.

Illyrians did not morph into Albanians. The ethnic make-up of the Balkans and Albanians is a lot more complex than this gross overstatement. The Albanians have recently held that they are Illyrians, primarily to �prove� they were the first people there (which would make one wonder why they don�t have an Albanian name for Kosovo that is not merely an Albanization of a Serbo-Croatian word). Various other groups in other times have claimed to be �Illyrian,� including Slavs.

Forgiveness plays a part. But I believe the Kosovo Serbs have a right to their churches. They have a right to pray. They have a right to live without being burned, shot, have their noses chopped off and their children murdered. They have a right to fight for these things, even if it means fighting NATO or the KLA terrorist organization (so-termed by the UN, EU and NATO).

I�m sorry, but your analogies are oversimplified and rife with inaccuracies.

Should the Serbs treat ethnic Albanians with care, love and forgiveness? Certainly! This will not, however, solve the latest crisis caused by international interventionalists who always see Serbs as bad and Muslims as good. They�ve created a situation that guarantees years of warfare. The Albanians want a separate Kosovo state. I can tell you that the Serbs will never give up Kosovo without a lot of bloodshed. They believe the region has been ethnically cleansed over the past 65 years of Serbs and that they have a right to their land. The UN, NATO and the EU made the bed of "no ethnic cleansing." Now we all have to lie in it.