www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology In my image

If we are to be like God - we must love our enemies. For Providence is nothing but good and it comes to all men. The sun shines upon the good man as well as the bad man. The rain falls on the good man as well and as much .. as on the bad man.

No one is a threat to God. God takes revenge on no one. Who can harm God ? that God might want revenge? No one.

God does not punish. God does not take revenge. He loves his friends and he loves his enemies.

It seems a hard thing to love your enemy. It seems hard because we do not yet know what love is. Even a bad man loves his friends. We must go further - we must be like God - we must love our enemies. There is no excuse nor reason for not loving our enemy that God will accept.

To love as God loves .. one must know what God knows. This means that we must love not from our heads but from our conscience. For our conscience is the place where all love rises in us. We have no love but what God lends to us of himself.

Therefore - we can not know how to love ... before hand. No reasonings, no judgments, no thoughts - contain love. There is nothing we can do to prepare - nothing we can use as guidance - before the very moment in which conscience makes its will known.

Be perfect.

To be perfect is to follow one's conscience - perfectly.

Indeed we are born with all that is necessary to reach God. No man is left without the means or is lacking anything at all that is needed to reach God. For something so important to us (reaching God) God has made it easy for us - as natural as breathing.

Therefore do not ask "How am I to love my enemy? How am I to be perfect?" because there is no path, no lessons, no principles to learn and apply .. it has nothing to do with the intellect and everything to do with the in-teaching of conscience.

I only do what I see my father do.

If it is true that Jesus was fully man - had our own human nature in every way .. then it is also true that we can 'see' the father just as Jesus did. We 'see' by understanding. We see by looking into conscience and we do what we see there. We imitate what we see in conscience .. we bring it out .. into this world.

Let what we see being done in heaven - let it be done (by us) on earth.

So where IS heaven? Is it a place or condition that we hope for at the end of life? Perhaps - but if that is all it is ... then Jesus got it wrong when he said "The kingdom of heaven is upon you." It is here now! but are we present to it?

The kingdom of heaven exists as the root of conscience. The veiled holy of holies. That .. all sacred place where the senses of body and the thoughts and reasonings of mind - can not go.

It is holy ground .. "Take off thy shoes." because we put shoes on to protect ourselves from rocks and thorns which hurt our feet when we walk. But Providence sends only good things. It takes time to get used to walking without shoes. We start out slow and our feet are tender. But soon enough our feet get used to it. Soon we are walking straighter. Soon our steps are not hesitant. Soon we no longer feel pain from rocks and thorns. And that which God creates (the earth) we are no longer isolated from it. We feel it fully (Providence) with nothing between us and it to isolate us from it. Perhaps we shall even run bare foot like natives.

Take the shoes off from your feet - because nothing that I have created will harm you. Walk behind me - put your feet where you see me put my feet (he tells us). Following God is therefore not something we plan our path about - but rather a moment by moment keeping our eyes on where he puts his feet.

How is it that we can love our enemies? We can't. Only God can. Only God can love our enemies. And so what is impossible for us - is possible for God. And we do what God does when we see God doing it (in our conscience). Eyes (internal glance) always toward conscience. No dead skin between us and it. Ready to do what it (conscience) does when we see it doing it. Ready to put our next step where he see him taking his next step.

When we become like Providence ... when we do what Providence does ... we become like him. We can not know before hand what we shall be like - but when he appears (moves within conscience) we shall be like him.

For something so important to God (and to us) as our own holiness - it must be easy. It must be nearer to us than our body, nearer to us than our thoughts, nearer to us than the beat of our heart, indeed it must be so near to us as to be at the very core of our being. So near to us, and indeed so natural to us, that we can overlook it. We can ignore it.

The final beatitude: blessed is the man who pays radical attention to the finger of God writing God's .. will within the sanctuary of his own conscience.

Peace to all men of good conscience.
-ray

Thank You
&
God Bless

Rachael

Ray,

Do you think this is what & how the Saints thought like?

I said Thank You because "I think" you wrote your post and even I can understand it, I'll have to read it a couple of more times to really let it dig deep into my brain. (ponder stuff)

Rachael

The Pascha of the Lord is upon us.

May we greet all as brothers in the Risen Christ.

Let us forgive all and embrace each other.

Ray,

Yes I agree with what you have to say here, I hope I am not stepping where maybe I shouldn't in my thoughts at least, I am not a scholar of any sort. Well here it goes.

I think in order to see the kingdom of God,(the Holy of Holies), it helps if your thoughts are in a "pure" state, of which isn't everyone trying to achieve through the grace of God.?

The kingdom of heaven exists as the root of conscience. The veiled holy of holies. That .. all sacred place where the senses of body and the thoughts and reasonings of mind - can not go.

Also, I do not know for sure about God not taking revenge,
he does say "he" vengeance is his, and the rainbow is also a covenant made with man that he would never do what he did before as in "The Great Flood".

Please be kind if anyone has any rebuttals.

Thank You,

Rachael

One should understand the scriptures as a witness (testament = the testimony of a witness).

That is: written from the perspective of a human witness.

There is a progress of understanding God that is evident in scriptures. The God of Christ (who does not take revenge) is the same God of Moses (which does seem to take revenge).

How is that???

In the Old Testament we see God taking revenge (for example upon Egypt). In the books of the prophets we see God punishing Israel for following after other gods. While in the New Testament we hear Jesus say that God does not take revenge (the tower did not fall on the pilgrims because of their sins Luke 13:4).

And so we went from 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' ... over to ... 'if a man strike you on the cheek offer to him the other cheek'.

Has God changed? No.

What has changed is the quality of the 'witness'. So we must say that Jesus understand his father better than Moses or the prophets had understood God.

Now when it is said "Revenge belongs to God" the reason is not that God wants to do his own revenge - but rather that God wants to take revenge out of our hands. Therefore we are to seek justice but never go further than justice into - revenge.

God has no need for revenge. If he did - certainly he would revenge the killing of his son! but no revenge followed the crucifixion.

When we are small children it seemed to us as if our parents got mad with us for no reason (we did not understand the reasons) ... a small child is incapable of understanding that if he wanders into the road he might get killed by a car.

When we grow to be older we now can understand that if we play in the road we risk getting killed by a car. So when we are older we now understand the reason ... and but we do not understand how punishment fixes the situation. I for one could never understand what satisfaction my father got out of spanking me (??). It made me sad and scared and hurt - so why would he do that to me??

But once I became old enough ... revenge stopped, and then punishments stopped, and if I did something wrong ... my parents got anger but we talked it out (or argued it).

Now I am an adult and my parents no longer get mad or argue.

Do you see the progression?

Scripture is not written by God himself .. it is rather written from the human perspective and the human witness ... and therefor it reflects the human progression of the people of Israel as they progressed in understanding God.

From a commanding king (Moses and the Exodus) - to a husband (the prophets where Israel is the bride) - and finally to a father (Christ). Each step is a better understanding of God who does not change.

Do you see the progression?

God did not change - it is our understanding of God that changed.

It is the same with our own spiritual progress (at least it should be). The concept in our minds of what God is and what God is like - should be much better now than when we were first told about God. We go from glory to glory (a better understanding of God) as we grow spiritually.

"... because of thy just punishments." is a simple way to understand what comes to us because of our sins ... but how about "... because of they great love" for a better understanding of the reason why God wants us to be clean of sin. If one does not progress to "because of they great love." then one is stuck in a lesser understanding of why God wants us to be free of sin.

Punishment does not bring about - love. If my wife does something which I do not like - I do not punish her! I might argue with her (smile) but I would never ever punish her. Love can not grow under such condition ... neither in myself nor in her. When is the last time you asked someone you loved - to punish you?? That is sick - yes?

And so we must go further - we must step up to Christ's own understanding of his father ... who said "forgive them" and did not say "punish them."

As for the rainbow and Noah ... I will explain Noah some other time.

-ray

Do you see the progression?

Scripture is not written by God himself .. it is rather written from the human perspective and the human witness ... and therefor it reflects the human progression of the people of Israel as they progressed in understanding God.
[/quote]

Yes, I do see the way you put it, and Thank you, also doesn't God have to give you the grace to understand him?, and it is through one's own will of acceptance that God allows his gift?

Rachael

[quote
Punishment does not bring about - love. If my wife does something which I do not like - I do not punish her! I might argue with her (smile) but I would never ever punish her. Love can not grow under such condition ... neither in myself nor in her. When is the last time you asked someone you loved - to punish you?? That is sick - yes?

And so we must go further - we must step up to Christ's own understanding of his father ... who said "forgive them" and did not say "punish them."

As for the rainbow and Noah ... I will explain Noah some other time.

-ray
[/quote]

Kind of wonder what kind of understanding can he have, he is already one with the Father, and he and the Father are one.

Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac, and the Father sending himself (in physical/mortal form to be a sacrifice, not as a punishment in the sense of the word but brought about an act of love stronger through an offering that was death by a physical punishment. The cause was and is because the Son is innocent/pure state of being, & perfect truth, and then there are those who's "understanding wouldn't, couldn't allow or accept his gift).
Can t be safe to say that the break down of communication, and sins cause the violent acts toward Jesus, and he in turn " turned the worst into good, for the Glory of God?

well, let me know if I am way off?

gently ok?


Rachael

The narrations of Genesis are a cosmogony. Genesis is a cosmogony. The early fathers of the church called it 'the cosmogony of Moses'. As such it is not a literal history nor even a literal pre-history. It is a cosmogony. Essentially ... an ancient Mystery Play.

Snakes do not talk. Even if they had the mental capability - have you ever seen a snake's mouth and tongue and throat? These physical features do not have the same capability as our mouth, lips, tongue, throat. They have no vocal chords nor do they have sinus cavity. They are incapable of making any sound except a hiss. I am not aware of any snakes who eat dirt for food (worms yes but snakes no).

The 'name' of Adam is not a name at all. It is a description. It has three meanings very near to our English word "man". It can mean mankind (in total) or a group of men, or an individual man (depending upon context). The woman's name is the same way ... she is called 'woman' and she is called 'wife' and in the last description she is called eve - which has the meaning of giving birth to all living things. These are not proper names (John, Jane, Mary, Jack, etc..) these are descriptions (man, mankind, husband, woman, wife, mother).

God has no body and does not 'walk' in a garden. The word Eden means paradise ("Today you shall be with me in paradise.") and has no geographical location. Never did. It describes a relationship we can have with God where his Providence supplies all that we need.

The original sin (the origin of sin) is self-providence rather than God's all-Providence. When we return to God's Providence - the kingdom of God is all around us. When we refuse God's Providence and prefer to provide for ourselves - the kingdom of God is no where to be found.

Woman does not have 'seed' (the ancient term for the 'foam' which we today call sperm).

The image of the seed of the woman ... his heel shall be for the snakes head - describes a continue tension - the Hebrew does not say that the heel will crush the snakes head - it says that the heel is poised to strike the snake (crush its head) in the same way the snake is also poised to strike his heel. The tension is not resolved (in the Hebrew) .. and so the heel does not crush the snakes head nor does the snake bite the man's heel. They are both poised ... like a photo.

The Hebrew word for 'day' and for 'light' is the same word (depending upon the context). Now think of how Jesus himself used the word 'light' to mean understanding which is a kind of knowledge. If a man lights a lamp - does he hide it under the couch? No - he puts it on the table so that the whole room is light. This means that what our conscience tells us - we should live by it. So rather than "the first day" the Hebrew says "the fist light" which means the first thing revealed or made known.

So how can it be the 'first' day - when the sun was not created until the fourth 'day'?

It is a cosmogony. A mystery play. The meaning of it is that sin (in each of us) is rooted in our turning away from conscience - and preferring to manipulate creation for our own ends (self-providence - we become our own god).

In any event - be that all as it may - the better understanding is the understanding that Christ understood .. that is: that God does not punish us. God forgives us (no punishment) seventy times seven times (like Jesus advised Peter) which means - each and every time! Do you remember when Peter asked "How many times must I forgive?" Seventy times seven (the cycle of a Jubilee when all debtors must be forgiven).

Punishment does not change hearts - it merely changes behavior. by planting fear of further punishment. I would not call that - a proper love for God. It is not the kind of 'love' that God wants nor is it the type of 'love' he has for us.

God continues to speak to us in the garden (our conscience). We should pay attention.

-ray

Yes, I do understand that the narrations of Genesis are a cosmogony.

So, if what you say is correct than man is only one who curses/punishes himself?

" .

In man's own mind standing before Providence he sees his faults and curses himself? and God allows it, as he did with Job?.

I am still confused by this.
here is why;

another example too;" take someone who is in an abusive relationship and keeps on forgiving (enabler) and then gets abused to the end the end being death (a martyr?). at what point does one stop forgiving?

I agree with you here true;
"I would not call that - a proper love for God. It is not the kind of 'love' that God wants nor is it the type of 'love' he has for us".

Rachael

ray,

were there only two humans in the beginning one man, one woman, who are supposedly our first parents?
Jesus also refers to Adam, as him (Jesus) being the son of man?

son of flesh?

I am sorry, I am still trying to get it .

Thank you for your patience,

Rachael

When a woman (this mostly happens to women) keeps forgiving and stays with someone who has the habit of abuse .. it is not forgiveness she is giving. She has a subconscious need for this abuse because she somehow thinks that love is conditional (abusive love is conditional). This condition seems like emotional love - but it is not love at all. It is mental (subconscious) programming.

The second reason why she stays and turns a blind eye .. is that she has not matured in what love is. Not many of us do. She is seeking to-be-loved because as a child Mommy loved me, Daddy loved me, aunts and uncles and strangers loved me .... etc.. which means that love (in her mind) is being-loved. She is looking for someone to love her (the type of love she had as a child). She dreams of 'falling in love'.

But this type of 'love' is dependent on exterior conditions. It is conditional (I love you if you act as I want you to act). It is a love which you can only have if others give it to you. This is not the kind of 'love' Jesus is talking about. This type of 'love' is not love at all it is rather a submissive-dominant relationship. Master/slave. Where one tries to find his own identity and worth through someone else.

I strongly suggest that you get a copy of the book "The Art of Loving" by Erick Fromm .. and read it. This book will explain to you why some people are subconsciously attracted to abusive partners.

Anyways ... one must love himself/herself first. One can not love others if one does not love himself. One can not draw water to give to someone else ... if their own pond is empty.

To stay with someone who is a habitual abuser - is not martyrdom - it is a sign of two things .. first: that the person in question grew up in a home where 'love' was conditional and abusive. And secondly - he or she is stuck in the submissive-dominant syndrome.

The Art of Loving by Erick Fromm.. get it. Read it. It will be the best 10 $ you ever spent.

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Loving-Erich-Fromm/dp/0060915943

Unfortunately many children grow up in homes where the parents never really develop into genuine love. This cycle will continue in thier children if thier children do not come to the realization that thier parents never really knew what love was.

-ray

Just think of this ...

If Jane (an abused woman) saw a man abusing an animal (perhaps a dog) hitting it and yelling at it etc... Jane would be disgusted and probably call the police to stop such cruelty .. yet .. Jane accepts the same treatment from her boyfriend!

This should show you that Jane (thinking she is being forgiving) if she continues with the man - Jane herself has a problem. Her own judgment is paralyzed. She needs help, she need courage, she need get with - the reality that the situation is no good for either of them. She needs to find out what it is in herself that paralyzes her mind when under abuse.

-ray

Ray:

This thread needs some browser adjustments made. Somehow it's become too wide.

BOB