www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Could Eastern Catholics be forced to become Orthodox again?

Perhaps looking at this issue from another perspective may help.

Since the Anathemas (how did Christian humanity ever come up with such a concept?!) were lifted by Paul the Sixth and Athenagoras, the mutual condemnations are now gone.

So, if we let the 'administrative structures' remain (this diocese, that diocese, etc.) but let the people be free to worship within the "Greater Church" as they choose and as needs require (there's only an XYZ church in this geographic area) while remaining a part of the 'administrative structure' of their own diocese, then eventually the walls will come down. People will become used to having (legitimately Patriarchally baptized/affiliated) people stopping by for worship. And if parish ABC has a schmuck for a priest and the place is sepulchral, while parish DEF is vibrant, then people may indeed 'vote with their feet' without having to do the #(%^&*)+! paperwork. Just 'register'.

It is said that the "primary goal of all bureaucracies is to preserve itself". I think this is in many ways, true. Christianity shouldn't be a bureaucracy. The Lord gave us the Gospel, not an Operations Manual.

Blessings to All (even the bureaucrats)!

Dr John

Amen!

The tone of the thread makes me uncomfortable. Perhaps it is because I'm RC on one side and Greek Orthodox on the other.

As a child, I was torn between the two communities. And as a kid, I thought there was wonder and value in each. And I was really HURT by the dichotomy. At confirmation, I remember asking Sister Mary Marlena about my GO mother's salvation. Her reply was that "she had a good chance of going to heaven." That assuaged my concern.

I found the Eastern Catholic communities that allowed me access to both traditions. In communion with Rome, but still Constantinopolitan in worship, traditions and theology.

Over the years, I've come to realize that the Romans don't really care about Eastern Christians and think we should just dump our traditions and pray the Rosary, go to Fatima, condemn married priests, and hold off on communion for our littlest ones, and the Orthodox see Byzantine Catholics as weaklings who sacrificed the faith for political safety when things got tough despite the fact that Orthodoxy has been buffeted and contorted by political machinations. (Third Rome? The First and Second still exist.)

From a personal perspective, I wish this baloney would stop.

The 'anathemas' have been lifted by both the Pope (Paul VI) and Patriarch Athenagoras. So, there is no canonical reason we should be dumping on each other, except for ecclesio-political reasons. ("My diocese/patriarchate" vs. "Your diocese/patriarchate") Catholics can seek the sacraments "in extraordinary circumstances" from Orthodox priests; Orthodox can get "final rites" from Catholics when there is no Orthodox option. ("Better 'them' than nothing".) Catholics can fulfil their Mass obligation at Orthodox churches, etc.

If all the good baptized people would just refuse to accept the 'administrative' elements, and just be with each other as baptized followers of Christ, then the Church would be a better place.

Need I remind folks that the Islamics, as well as other non-Christian - and some 'Christian' groups, are advancing to induce God's children into money-making and power-seeking sects. We need, as Cathodox communities, to work together to frustrate these efforts.

In the Middle East, our Christian brethren realize this and don't harp so much on the jurisdictional stuff. For them, in the onslaught of Islamic terror and murder, it is clear that we Christians need to be united.

Christians in Europe and the Americas don't seem to have gotten the message. (The Phillipines and other SE Asian communities are experiencing the Islamic onslaught also.) The 'jihad' is coming, and we need to buttress our people against it. And that means an AGGRESSIVE effort to bring people to Christ and His Gospel in their daily lives.

Might I remind folks that the Kievan and Carpathian churches sought assistance from the West when the T-people/Ottomans were racing up the Balkan peninsula, murdering and raping, and that the only option open was to appeal to Vienna and the West - and they subsequently united themselves with the Western Church to preserve their people. Orthodox? Catholic? ALIVE?

For other Christians to 'condemn' this as an apostasy to Romanism is both unChristian and irrational.

Today, the T-people/Ottomans are no longer a major force in world politics, but the Izlamics are still around, and factions of their group will still kill non-Izlamics to show their devotion to their 'faith'.

Christ told us to forgive our enemies and those that hate us. But an old Greek proverb says: "forgive your enemies, but don't turn your back on them".

We have GOT to get beyond this Catholic/Orthodox stuff. As baptized Christians, we have to proclaim the Gospel of Christ. And we have to stand united as "Church" or 'faith community' or whatever against those who would destroy the message of the Gospel. Not persecute, but rather parry against their PR campaign as the 'religion of peace' and the ultimate revelation of God.

Blessings to All!

Dr John

Nice post, Dr. John. AMEN to all that you said!

I personally think that this thread can and should conclude with it...


In the Risen Christ we all worship and glorify!
Alice

X. B! (Christ is risen!)
C. I. X! (Glory to Jesus Christ)

What about the troubled sheep? Theological perspectives, judicial allegiances all said and good but their faith is a personal expression. Fine that in Greek orthodox means true belief, but you are speaking of the children of Saints, yes SAINTS Cyril and Methodius who come from a Slavonic perspective. �Pravoslavnikh� means true glory as we are what we pray. Catholic is �sobornuyu� which should respect local custom (not talking Tradition here).

Again Nikon is ripping out pious custom to come in line with the second or third Rome. If granny wants her funeral like the one she attended as a small child for her Baba (Granny) here in the US, what is wrong with having a Divine Liturgy? Why wait a month (40 days) when her grandchildren will not be in town to experience what sustained her faith? If not why bring the body to church, so the clergy have a threat to keep the sheep in line? This is just one of many heartaches. If it organically comes in lines of the �real Orthodox� fine but forcing it is another form of �Uniatzation�. Sometimes it is seen as a smokescreen to accommodate a lax clergyman. If a Parish has had two Sunday services for over a century we can assume before the 40�s it was Matins and Liturgy, then with Latinization it became tandem Liturgies. Now the early service is not reverted back to Matins just eliminated hiding behind �one cup one altar�. Never mind a single church BUILDING today can accommodate the equivalent of four or five old country parishes of parishioners with legitimate real life time restraints.

The sheep today are smart and sometimes execute humility not to overshadow the shepherd. The CODE OF CANONS OF THE EASTERN CHURCHES English language 1990 edition in Title XXIX Chapter II Can. 1508 state �Custom is the best interpreter of law�. Never the less some shepherds see themselves as infallible.

P.S. Read "shepherd" as pastor.