www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy How much Slavonic was used during Resurrection Services?

Condolences on you loss, Matt. I'm sorry.

You make a very good point, one I had never thought of. You know my feelings in using Slavonic--not 100% but enough to keep tradition alive and educate the future generations. But in something like this, it would be much more important for the people who don't know Slavonic to have the service in English. What we say are not just "words" but they mean something. Just as when we make the sign of the cross, we are not just making a motion with out hands--we are actully doing something. Asking the the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit to do something for someone or something.

It would be more meaningful to know what the words are and understand them. I'm sure there will be people at my service (whenever that should happen) who will not know Slavonic. I still want Slavonic, but it is my personal choice. It might even spark something in someone.

Again, I am sorry for your loss.

Tim

ps--how are things going? You can PM me. April was really, really bad month for me.

I attended St.Theodosius Cathedral this year for Pascha. I can say for a fact that more Slavonic was used there than I would have heard at my home parish. (Judging by last year at my home parish). It seems like St. Theodosius reserves it for Pascha, whereas my parish does it regularly throughout the year.

Indeed, in those few GOA parishes where services are chanted in English, one can see in the faces, how the profound and deep meaning overwhelmingly touches those attending--and how the theology of our faith becomes crystal clear...

Speaking from personal experience, when another language other than one's native English is used, *especially* in the chants, people are simply there in body-- and perhaps private prayer--(if not elsewhere-- as the mind easily wanders) but they are not there in full and complete communal worship of our Eastern faith.

My condolences on the passing of your cousin.

In Christ,
Alice

Speaking from personal experience, when another language other than one's native English is used, *especially* in the chants, people are simply there in body-- and perhaps private prayer--(if not elsewhere-- as the mind easily wanders) but they are not there in full and complete communal worship of our Eastern faith.

In Christ,
Alice [/quote]

Alice,

I continue to have the complete opposite experience in the Ruthenian parishes that I attend. There are but a few parishioners in these parishes, many elderly like my 91 1/2 year old father, who do not sing the new RDL English, as it is foreign to them. But once parts of the Divine Liturgy revert back to the Levkulic Ruthenian Music in English, these elderly parishioners start to sing. Now these same liturgies with a few parishioners attending will literally "blow the roof off" of their Temples when Church Slavonic is sung. Again, I don't buy into the argument that traditional Church Slavonic, Arabic and Greek liturgical languages hurt parish grow and I believe where they are still used, actually sustain parishes.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese! Khristos Anesti! Alithos
Anesti!

Ung

I am sorry. I disagree. I am fluent in Greek, yet never really could pick up what was being chanted in Greek. When our priest's friend, a former seminarian, replaced the former whiney Greek chanters we used to have and started chanting in English, it blew my head--I finally could understand the chants, and WOW!!! It was like I had just heard the language of angels--my OWN! Indeed, everyone feels as if their native born language (church or otherwise) is the language of angels--because the precious spiritual food which nourishes in the prayers is fed to them to understand.

My husband, who is American but grew up in Greece, feels the opposite way from me regarding English. He prefers Greek, however he understands my position, and I understand his. Just as he cannot always pick up the lyrics in rock songs, I could not pick up the 'lyrics' in church songs. Just as he felt a bit 'out of it' liturgically when we attended an all Slavonic ROCOR service...American born generations of Greek heritage often feel a bit 'out of it' liturgically when hearing Greek services...

I humbly suggest that we must all put ourselves in the shoes of the other in order to understand them. I understand your grandfather's joy in hearing Slavonic. I understand my husband's joy and the joy of those who are Greek born, in hearing Greek-- *but*-- I also understand my children and countless, countless other American born children who are reared in the church and who have been involved in all the ministries for youth of the church, who complain that they just don't understand what is going on. I was also one of them. With my new priest and chanter, I finally, after forty some years, actually fell in love with my Orthodox faith. I finally knew what it was all about, and why it was awesome, because after years of catechism, Greek Orthodox parochial school, Greek Orthodox camps, teaching Sunday School, and countless other ways in which I contributed to Greek Orthodoxy in the U.S., through my native tongue of English, I was finally able to fall in love with the Liturgy and other services.

I know that this is a hot topic for you, and it is also for the Greek Orthodox Church in America. My opinions, however, have nothing to do with your church and your liturgy, etc., because I am not a member, and I cannot speak for you. Each church has unique situations and cultural mindsets which the other does not know.

For my church, I have come to understand both sides. I have always thought that the wisest thing to do would be to have alternate liturgies during the month--one all Greek and one all English, but priests have explained to me the drawbacks on that.
I believe that Archbishop Iakovos, of blessed memory, gave the best directive (which fell to the wayside after he retired); for those parishes with a majority of English speakers, services should be primarily in English; for those parishes with a majority of Greek born parishioners, the services should be primarily in Greek.

Disclaimer: My opinions have to do *only* with the Greek Orthodox Church in America and Greek Americans, and the opinions and feelings I have with the language are my own. The English chanter and priest I mention have awesome presence, voices and depth of feeling, so I can only speak for an all English liturgy, as I have experienced it with them, although I have also felt this way at St. Vladimir Seminary services.

In Christ,
Alice

I humbly suggest that we must all put ourselves in the shoes of the other in order to understand them. I understand your grandfather's joy in hearing Slavonic. Alice [/quote]

Not Grandfather, father, as I'm the youngest of 16 childern. I've stood next to him in church since the day I was born. I do not buy into this "All English All-American" Eastern Church theory". It is contrary to what I have experienced and continue to experience.

Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese!

Ung

Dear Ung,

As I said, (and for some reason, in your responses, I feel that I am not being granted the respect of being heard out), we are all entitled to our opinions and feelings, as God has created us differently, and He often speaks to us differently...(that is why I do not put down the traditions and worship of other non-Eastern Christians), but I think that it is good to also try to understand another person's opinions and feelings.

Forgive me for making the error in typing grandfather instead of father.

I rejoice that you rejoice in hearing and experiencing God in Slavonic!
May He continue to bless you in the services you enjoy!

In Christ,
Alice

I think if a language makes sense for a community, and it's what they want to use, they should use it.

I can say for myself, without the liturgy being almost entirely in English, I couldn't attend. I don't have some issue with Slavonic or ethnicity and so on, I just couldn't understand what was going on. Having some hymns in Slavonic is fine with me, and they do sound beautiful. I can say I do notice that the number of people who sing, when Slavonic is used, is much smaller than when English is used. This is not because people around me are anti Slavonic, I don't know anybody who is, they just don't know the language and it isn't taught to the kids or the adults who don't know it. It just isn't a priority.

For us, the simple fact is there aren't going to be new people showing up from Central Europe.

...that's all we're asking. A few Marian Hymns, Eucharistic Hymns,Kol'jady Carols, a few Svjatyj Bozhe's, Izhe Cheruvimy's in Church Slavonic won't hurt any parish and it will make the surviving childern of the immigrant founders feel good. When ever we play tapes of Slavonic liturgical songs and hymns for my father at home, he becomes energetic and full of life. This is also true when my father attends Divine Liturgy and he hears Church Slavonic hymns and parts of the liturgy sung in Church Slavonic , it is a great pick-me up for these tired and weary souls. Let us give these forebears of the faith a little comfort in their last days.

Ung

I have to agree with Ung on this one. I don't think all Slavonic services all the time are a good idea. I don't think an all Slavonic service even once a month is a good idea. But a few hymns, once or twice a month, is all I'm asking.

I respect that most people who attend the Ruthenian churches don't know Slavonic and were not brought up speaking or even hearing the language. Ung and I and those like us are the minority, I'm sure. So having the Liturgy in English is the way to go. It only makes sense. But a few hymns maybe once a month would not hurt anyone.

Is it a personal thing? Is it something that will fall by the wayside when my generation dies? Maybe. I don't know. But 85% English and 15% Slavonic once a month will not hurt the younger generation. AMM is right--we need to respect each other's opinions. And I think we do, for the most part. But I do see a lot of people who think that even a few hymns in Slavonic would be a bad thing. And that's not respecting our generation.

Again, this is only my opinion and applies only to the Ruthenian Church. I don't know enough about the Greek churches or other churches to form an intelligent opinion. (Many people will say I can't form an intelligent opinion on any topic. But my relatives love me anyway ) But seriously, respect for other's opinions is something we should all do. Why? Because of what Jesus said in Mathew--what we do to others, we do to him. Pretty simple when one looks at it from that perspective!

My church does English only. But it doesn't stop me from singing quietly to myself the hymns in Slavonic. Not loud enough to throw anyone sitting behind me or in front of me. But loud enough for me to know what I'm doing. And that gives me the "language of the Angels." It would be nice to hear everyone singing the same language. That does blow the roof off. But I know that won't happen in my church. So I do what I can. Jesus understands.

Tim