www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Huge Chalices

I've noticed in pictures of some Russian hierarchical Divine liturgies, the presence of massive chalices (must be a two feet tall, more or less) on the altar. These are examples:

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/gallery/image64_13284.htm

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/gallery/image65_7667.htm

What are these and how are these used? I don't think that the hierarchs receive communion from these!

Unlike other Local Orthodox Churches, the Russian Church takes a bit too literally the notion that one may only consecrate the contents of one Chalice - then, if there are to be a great many communicants, a silver liturgical "ladle", usually gold-plated, is used to transfer some of the Precious Blood into other, normal-sized Chalices for the administration of Holy Communion. On really great occasions this somewhat complicated procedure necessitates the use of a vastly over-sized "main Chalice", as we see illustrated in these beautiful photographs.

The Greeks and others are not so scrupulous in the matter; if they expect many to Holy Communion, they will simply put a suitable amount of wine in a suitable number of chalices (with a few drops of water in each, of course), and carry them all in the Great Entrance, taking care to set each one directly on the �ntimension. Comes time for Holy Communion, they will pour some of the Zeon into each Chalice, break the Lamb (notice that both pictures also show a large-sized Lamb) appropriately so as to have a sufficient number of Particles for the Communion of both clergy and faithful, and supply each Chalice to the Priest who is to distribute Holy Communion from that Chalice with a Communion cloth and a Spoon. Much less cumbersome in the long run.

Actually, if one wanted to be all that scrupulous, a "better" solution might be to consecrate the Precious Blood in one large silver flagon, and pour the Precious Blood directly from the flagon into the Chalices. But that, I suppose, is too easy.

Fr. Serge

Won't using a silver liturgical ladle cause some spillage, especially when it comes to taking the Blood out of a massive chalice? Not being provocative here, just asking.

I suppose that it is possible. However, I've seen it done many times at Hierarchal Liturgies and it is done very, very carefully and I've not seen a single drop spilled ever. I must say that Orthodox seem to be much more careful of profaning the Body and Blood of Christ than do typical Roman Catholics in America. This is my own observation. I'm sure it's different in the Philippines and elsewhere in the Catholic world.

Fr David Straut

This Chalice is nearly as big as a Baptismal Font! I do see problems handling this Chalice, though I suppose that the Patriarchal Russian priests have figured it all out.

Fr David Straut

As one who has a very bad back and a lifting restriction, may I ask how one goes about lifting one of these chalices for the time when the Liturgy has the celebrant sing out "Thine Own of Thine Own . . ." at the same time lifting the large diskos?

BOB

I have served twice at UGCC Divine Liturgies where this was done. And it was indeed done slowly, carefully, and respectfully. I will say this is not a universal practice in the UGCC; for example when the Patriarch came to Philadelphia numerous chalices were prepared.

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Bob, perhaps there should be a weght-lifting requirement during the diaconal testing process?

Big enough for ya??

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Alexandr

I've used unusually large chalices before (you should see the one St. Innocent brought from Russia!), and it is not a problem.

Having served both ways myself, I prefer to consecrate the Precious Blood in as many chalices as are needed - although I too have never seen anyone spill the Precious Blood whilst using the above-described ladle. Still, why take risks?

I've never seen anyone at all use the flagon! I have one that would probably do if I had it gold-plated (it's made of sterling silver, and I've never used it for anything at all), but I don't wish to be that innovative.

I remember at, of all places, the World Council of Churches in Vancouver, there was a "pan-Orthodox" Divine Liturgy of sorts, with an amazing number of chalices on the Holy Table - the Russian clergy were quite annoyed. Later, everyone became annoyed: it was obvious to anyone that Iakovos, without announcing anything, had prepared a sufficient quantity of the Holy Gifts to communicate all comers. What actually happened is that each priest did as he pleased, so whether non-Orthodox did or did not manage to receive Communion depended purely on which queue he joined! [No, I am NOT making this up! There are reliable witnesses to prove it] You can imagine how most of the Orthodox felt (including the priests who considered that they had been pressured into communicating people whom they would not normally have communicated), and how other people felt when they were refused Communion while they could see for themselves that one queue over anybody and everybody was communicated.

To make it even crazier, this all took place a hundred yards or so from the Pacific Ocean, in lovely summer weather. Iakovos could easily have decided to replace the Divine Liturgy - which was bound to cause controversy - with a solemn Blessing of Waters and some young Greek men poised to retrieve the Cross. Would have made a wonderful impression, and no offense to anyone. After all, Iakovos was "Exarch of the Oceans Atlantic and Pacific", so it might have been appropriate!

Father Serge

If you watch last year's Divine Liturgy celebrating the union of ROC and ROCOR, you will see a huge chalice and diskos used.

Go to http://212.111.66.210/trans/ and then click on the link: Архив трансляции 4/17 мая 2007 года

You will see the huge chalice and diskos during the Great Entrance beginning at 2:32:40.

At 2:56:40, you'll see the two deacons ready to lift the chalice and diskos for the singing of "Thine own of thine..."

This reminds me of an episode of "Small People in a Big World"!!!

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I knew some people who had something like that in college. It was used for "other" purposes though.

What happened to one bread, one cup? Is this common in the Eastern Catholic churches? We're not permitted to do this at all!