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ARCHBISHOP CLEMENT RECEIVES A REPRESENTATIVE OF VATICAN


Archbishop Clement of Kaluga and Borovsk, vice-chairman of Department for External Church Relations of The the Moscow Patriarchate, received on February 6, 2002, the Representative of the Holy See in the Russian Federation, Archbishop Giorgio Zur, at the latter's request.

The diplomatic representative conveyed official information concerning the practical steps that Vatican plans to take to change fundamentally the canonical order of the Catholic Church in Russia.

It was stated on the part of The the Moscow Patriarchate that the actions planned by the Vatican represented violations of the canonical principles and norms of interchurch relations. Such actions will constitute serious obstacles for the development of dialogue between the two Churches.

What specifically is the Vatican planning to change?

I can see four possible moves upsetting the Church in Russia (MP):

1. Changing Archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz and the other bishops from apostolic administrators to territorial bishops with titles like archbishop of Moscow, etc. It would seem a conquest kind of gesture.

2. Giving official status and canonical territories to the Russian Byzantine Catholics (unlikely as there are very few of these).

3. Moving the Ukrainian Catholic Church's headquarters east to Kiev. L'vov is its home turf. Kiev is historically Russian turf (unlike L'vov, the city is Russian-speaking) and few Ukrainian Catholics live there.

and/or

4. Naming Metropolitan Lubomyr officially a patriarch.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

It's not clear, but my speculation would be 1 or 4.

I think that there has been some "dialogue" and disagreement between Rome and Moscow relating to the term "patriarchal territory", and I think that either setting up another Patriarchate or "regularizing" the Latin Catholic bishops into territorial episcopates would be viewed negatively by the MP.

Brendan

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: Brendan ]

Dear Brother Brendan and Reader Sergius,

(I felt I had to give you a title too, Brendan!)

I really don't think that the Vatican will name Patriarch Lubomyr an official "Patriarch."

That's just not in the cards.

I do believe that the restructuring has to do with allowing Byzantine Russian Catholics to set up their own Byzantine Russian Catholic Church that is not directly under an RC adminstrator like Kondrusiewicz.

I believe this will happen because so many Eastern Catholics are complaining (aren't they just whiners? ) about the fact that Kondrusiewicz is not permitting them to organize as a Particular Catholic Church with their own Byz Rus hierarchy independent of the RC hierarchy.

This was a big issue a while ago and it has not died down.

The Russian Greek Catholics aren't happy about being under a Pole. Can you blame them?

Alex

Alex, since Kiev holds a primacy of honor among Slavic Christians, do you think that there is a possibility of raising the Ukrainian status to patriarchal (the people have done it, but the bureaucrats are still dragging their feet) and then giving the Russian Byzantine Catholics their own status as part of the ancient Patriarchate of Kiev? That way, the ancient order would be restored, the Ukrainians/Kievans would finally be able to take their rightful place as the 'Mother Church' of Northern Slavic Christianity, the Russians would be out from under the "Polish" RCs, and the Muscovites would be dealing with another unquestionable Constantinopolitan church, more ancient and venerable than their own.

Do you think this would lead to problems?

Blessings!

Serge,

"Kiev is historically Russian turf"

Wow..... that make the hairs on my back stand up....I am sorry but how did you get that?
Thanks.

-ukrainiancatholic

I would think that the Apostolic Administrations will be made diocese and possibly a bishop will be named for the Russian exarchate which was never officially suppressed, and an exarchate re-erected for the Belarusans which was suppressed.

But I have to blow off a little steam here. Those of you who know me know, that I am one of the most pro-Orthodox and Byzantinizing Byzantine Catholics one could hope to find. However, I must say the Moscow Patriarchate is dead wrong and has been wrong for quite some time now. The empire is gone and pluralism is here to stay. The Russian Church needs to stop living in the past and get on with the business of spreading the Gospel. They also need to accept the fact that because of their collaboration with the Communist government some people are never going to accept them. They made their bed and now they have to lay in it. If they stopped worrying about if the Ukrainian Archbishop is going to be officially made a patriarch or if 3000 Russian Catholics are going to have a bishop and actually tried ministering to people's needs maybe they wouldn't have to worry about people defecting to the Latin or Protestant Churches.

And the "poor MP doesn't have the resources the western groups have" arguement is a little tired. That is relative. The MP has all the churches, which are a resource (ask all the Catholics praying in basements who don't have a church). Some of these were stolen,yet the MP won't give them up even if they aren't using them. And it is not as if American Orthodox, as well as Catholics (Aid to the Church in Need), aren't sending money.

The real problem is the MP still operates in achronistic and delusional fashion. Does anyone really think that if tomorrow the Catholic and Protestant Churches were declared illegal and closed everyone would flock to the MP or that all the MP's problems would be solved. I don't mean to sound so irrate but the MP is starting to grate on my nerves with their constant whining and crying.

Sorry, guys. After that brief rant, I now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

[ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: Lance ]

Lance,

Well, my Guess No. 1 was right.

I should have put money on it.

Seriously, I am very sorry things have taken this turn. Sends a very confrontational message. An implied message of conquest, as I wrote earlier.

And now, a few words about your attack on the patriarchate people love to hate, that of Moscow and All Rus', the world's largest Orthodox Church.

I don't buy the notion that Moscow should just lie down and play dead while foreign religious groups, including heretical ones and worse, come in and grab Russian souls.

If they ...actually tried ministering to people's needs

I'm not claiming every Russian priest is a St John of Kronstadt but the good ones are out there. In fact there is a link on my site about one. I have friends from Ivanovo who visit every few years or so. The Church in Russia is doing this.

And the "poor MP doesn't have the resources the western groups have" arguement is a little tired.

It's true, and unlike this latest blunder in prudential judgement from the Vatican officials, some Catholic groups are doing their part to help the native Church in Russia — namely, Aid to the Church in Need.

"Aid to the Church in Russia' is a different cat —apparently it proselytizes Russians.

The real problem is the MP still operates in an anachronistic and delusional fashion.

Insulting. What if I called the Pope "delusional'? I'm not, but that's the equivalent force of what you wrote.

Lance, after a week of test-driving your hours (minus Sext), using them exclusively for my prayer rule, I think they are wonderful.

I'm very sorry to see you go through this turn.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Lance, I agree.

Dear Forum,
I think I agree partly with Reader Serge. My view is to let Russia be. Yes have bishops for Catholics, but Russia is mostly Orthodox and they believe in the same Jesus but they have their historical religion with valid sacraments in the eyes of the Vatican etc. So I hope the Pope's intention is set up a leadership for the Catholics there, not to "win" souls there. Let the Orthodox Russians be.
-ukrainiancatholic

Indeed, but what should the Church do about the Ukrainian Christians? Don't they have any role in this? If 'tradition' is the norm, is not Kiev the "Jerusalem" of the Northern Slavs? And should the Kievans not have a role in the structure of the northern Slavic Church?

Blessings!

ukrainiancatholic,

Sorry I missed your postings to me last night.

"Kiev is historically Russian turf"

Wow..... that make the hairs on my back stand up....I am sorry but how did you get that?

I know my views are unpopular with Ukrainian nationalists but 1) I see the three Russias — Russia, Ukraine and Belarus — as one, 2) Ukraine except Ruthenia* was in the Russian Empire about as long as English people have lived in North America, 3) Kiev is Russian-speaking and 4) the largest Church there numerically is the Ukrainian branch of the Moscow Patriarchate.

As I wrote elsewhere I do not see my view as a "diss' of Ukraine. I know you probably disagree. Kievan Orthodoxy — in medieval times — was long, long before there was any such thing as Russian vs. Ukrainian nationalism.

In theory, of course a move of the center of Rus' (three-Russias) Christianity back to Kiev is possible but 1) how practical? and 2) while such an attempt by Metropolitan Lubomyr would be great news for Ukrainian Catholics it would be disastrous for Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.

Just like setting up territorial Roman dioceses in Russia, setting up another patriarch in Patriarch Alexis II's canonical territory (which Ukraine is) would at least be perceived as an act of aggression.

Roman Catholics in Russia already have bishops — the creation of Roman Catholic dioceses is a needless act sending the wrong message to the Orthodox.

*Pretty much the center of Ukrainian separatism, which is understandable. Throughout the same historical period Kiev was Russian, L'vov was not.

http://oldworldrus.com

Reader Serge,

Please forgive my previous post it was a little strong. I was annoyed when I wrote it. Perhaps I can word it better.

Let me start by saying I harbor no ill will to the MP and hope that it does rebuild and renew itself. I contribute to Aid to the Church in Need. (You are correct about Aid to the Church in Russia. It is run by SSPX or something close. That was a typo. I fixed it above)

I also recognize there are many good and holy bishops and priests in the MP, probably most if not all of them. But that does not mean administratively they can't screw up. And the administration seems to spend an inordinate amount of time complaining about the Catholic Church rather than how they can go about solving problems in Russia like the large number of children abandoned to the streets.

Perhaps I should have said the MP is deluding itself rather than that they are delusional. My point is not everyone in Russia who wants to be Christian wants to be Orthodox. Some people reject the MP because they collaborated with the Communists. Many more reject it because it is Russian. The Russian Republic, as you know, is full of ethnic groups that can't stand the Russians.

Given these facts why is the MP so concerned about suppresing other Churches? Again I ask do they really think everyone will just join them if the other Churches are suppresed?

Another point, an Apostolic Administration is a diocese in everything but name (minus a few canonical points that only effect its relation to Rome not other Churches), what does it matter that they are now canonical diocese? The fact is they are there. Why must we play semantic games with the MP? Or is this just a weak excuse for the MP to complain about Catholic "aggression"?

I just think the MP needs to worry less about the Catholic Church and more about what they can do to win their people back other than seeking a privileged status in the courts.

I am glad you found the Hours format useful. Please don't read to much into my views on this particular issue. I am still very Pro-Orthodox. Forgive me if a have offended.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

[ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: Lance ]

Lance,

God forgives.

You are correct about Aid to the Church in Russia. It is run by SSPX or something close

No, a third group with yet another similar, confusing name, Aid to Our Lady's Russia, is run by the SSPX or more specifically its affiliate Redemptorist order, the Transalpine Redemptorists.

http://oldworldrus.com

The Greeks set up a Metropolitanate of Italy, knowing the Pope is "Metropolitan of Italy", so it is totally fair that the Russian Roman Catholics get a bishop and diocese. I am fully in support of this decision by the Vatican.

anastasios