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Where have all the Orthodox-minded gone?
Long time passing...

If I wanted to read unqualified support of Vatican policy, there are websites and newspapers — National Catholic Register or Our Sunday Visitor — I would go to or buy.

If I wanted the AmChurch party line, I'd buy the National "Catholic' Reporter, but I don't want it, and, alas, at the moment I am not house-training a puppy.

Man, Brendan is so right. This forum has changed.

http://oldworldrus.com

Serge,

Smilies aren't that bad, but then again I'm just not punctual like you are.

Anyhoo, this move by the Vatican has me worried, however, I'm still waiting until after 1)Cardinal Kasper's visit and its fallout, and 2)if Rome decides what to make these new bishops (territorial?) before I completely formulate my opinion on this matter.

Yes, stupid things are done with the best intention, just a half hour or so ago the fire alarm went off in our dorm because some moron put a cinnamon roll in the microwave for 57 minutes (good way to create charcoal rolls and smoke and stink up the entire dorm).

On the activities of the Maryknoll:
Heck Yes!! Bring back the Cossack Brotherhoods!! Leave it to the left to be true imperialists. Actually, some days I'd like to see Cossack Brotherhoods appear here in the U.S.

I think the forum has changed a bit too. Where's Stuart, he's probably given up this board for the Great Fast, so I guess I'll have to wait until Bright Week to here some more enlightened (in the sacramental sense) commentary from him.

And you know what scares me? If the Maryknolls' efforts are successful, and the Vatican decides to make the new Russian Catholic bishops territorial ones, guess what Serge? We're gonna have the RC civil war on Holy Russian Orthodox turf! Where are the Cossacks? Lemme sign up!

What does the future of the Byzantine Christianity think about all this (i.e. the dubious activities of both liberal and conservative RC groups in Eastern Europe, the infighting between the EO and the EC, etc...)? Isn't somebody tired of this yet? Why does it seem that most of the people genuine concerned and watching these things closely are Sergius' age or older (not that I think you're old, Serge)? Maybe if the pages of GCU magazine had more relevant material than banal reports of lodge meetings (mostly concerning people 3 times my age), and our Eparchial newspapers and newsletters featured more genuine awareness and concern about what's happening to the Church and less cut-and-paste reporting, than maybe we'd have more younger people that care enough to do or say something (Note to reader: to understand the background of this rant, check out the thread "Family Emergency" in the ByzanTEEN section)

Yours in the Theotokos,

Darrenn

I would agree with you about the National Catholic Reporter.

I am puzzled why support for the Vatican's decision to do the same thing in Russia that it already does in Greece, Eastern Europe and the Middle East might make some of us less Orthodox-minded. Catholic bishops operate in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, etc., etc.

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that they existed in Russia before the Revolution of 1917 also (there were a lot more Catholics in Russia then).

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Well put, Darrenn.

Maybe if the pages of GCU magazine had more relevant material than banal reports of lodge meetings (mostly concerning people 3 times my age), and our Eparchial newspapers and newsletters featured more genuine awareness and concern about what's happening to the Church and less cut-and-paste reporting

Aминь! (Though people three times your age have their place in church news and deserve respect.) The day such presently lame publications print things like Fr Serge Keleher's criticisms of the Novus Ordo ( a definite move "away from the Christian East' ) — instead of lame-a** propaganda trying to foist extraordinary Eucharistic ministers on the Ruthenian populace — and Fr Seraphim Rose's attacks on modern society and on прелесть like the excesses of charismatism, either straight from Orthodox sources like Fr Seraphim, or — better still! — home-grown Byzantine Catholic prophetic and teaching voices rooted in Orthodoxy, the closer the end of the Schism will be.

The Orthodox tradition — saving medicine for the whole Church. Read all about it!

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Sorry, Serge. You're emitting a lot of bogons in this thread.

This bitching and whining by the MP measures at least 2e6 microLenats, to say the least. If it's wrong for RCs to organize dioceses in RO territory, then the MP can set the example by ordering all RO eparchies outside its traditional patriarchal territory to dissolve.

Methinks Rome has finally had enough stonewalling from the MP and decided that it's going to take care of its own sheep. If the MP wanted it different, then it should have taken hold of the olive branch extended to it by the Vatican, instead of demonizing the Pope.

Lesson to learn: if the EOs don't like having ECs around, then they should work toward indistinguishability via reunion.

Sorry folks, but I've had about enough.

Ultimately, whatever works best to serve the Russian Roman Catholics pastorally should be followed, even if it conflicts with the MP.

Serge,

But who is saying the Latin bishop should be "Archibishop of Moscow"? It is my understanding that most Catholics are in Siberia.

I think the days when we had one bishop per city are never going to return (and I don't want them to return, either). There should be dioceses and hierachies based on Rite, and if they overlap, that's no problem.

As you know, ecclesiologically speaking, having "titular bishops" that act as "apostolic administrators" is not really compatible with communion ecclesiology. These bishops are serving real communities, and so they should be ruling bishops of real dioceses (but out of courtesy, the Vatican should name the dicoese after small towns/suburbs that do not already have Orthodox bishops).

anastasios

But who is saying the Latin bishop should be "Archibishop of Moscow"? It is my understanding that most Catholics are in Siberia.

No one has announced this AFAIK but the top Roman Catholic apostolic administrator, Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz (a Pole from Belarus), is an archbishop and lives in Moscow. An understandable assumption on my part.

"Bogons'? Good one. I may use it myself someday, sooner or later.

I maintain that this forum definitely has changed.

http://oldworldrus.com

.

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

It's the people, folks. The critical issue is the fact that people have to be able to follow the dictates of the Gospel without regard to jurisdictional stuff.

I would suspect that there are ROs and ECs in Russia who are truly committed to the Gospel mandates. And, I'm convinced that they would happily work together to serve the poor and disenfranchised without batting an eyelash.

Ultimately, I believe that the jurisdictional stuff is about MONEY, power and "prestige". They use the theology as the 'verification' of their validity. The MP sees itself as the one and only 'true' Russian Christian manifestation. Catholics (of whatever persuasion), because of their theological stance acknowledging the 'canonicity' of the Orthodox Church, are reluctant to do anything to 'offend' the Russian Orthodox. The MP Russian Orthodox are apparently not bound by the same perspective; for them (apparently) the Catholics have about the same status as Jehovah's Witnesses: a 'religious organization' that presents a challenge to Russian Orthodoxy. And whose convert adherents need to be 'baptized' -- or in more liberal understanding: "re-baptized" (whatever that means).

The understanding of "Church" appears to be radically different. Different 'ecclesiology' theology.

Thus, the question: if Catholics acknowledge Russian Orthodoxy as "Church", but Russian Orthodox (MP) don't acknowledge Catholics (of whatever provenance) as "Church", then what is the basis of interaction? In that case, it would seem that Catholics could easily say: "Well, if we aren't "Church", then let's pretend we're the YMCA and just move in as a religious organization and ignore all deference to Russian Orthodoxy since the interaction is not "Church/Church" but rather "Church/Religious Organization".

If the MP has a problem, then the question needs to be posed to them: Is the Catholic Community: "Church" as traditionally and canonically understood or is it not? If yes, then let's invoke the canons and work something out. If not, then let the dominoes fall where they may.

It appears that much of the rest of Orthodoxy is unwilling to relegate the Western Churches (including Catholicism) to the rubbish bin of Christianity. I would hope that the MP would concur with the rest of their Orthodox communicants in establishing dialogues with the Patriarch of Rome. These folks seem to understand that Christian unity is not just some theoretical theological goal, but rather a reality to be achieved. IF they are unwilling to do this, then "by their works shall you know them". I pray the Holy Spirit will continue to be with all good Christians who are working their tails off to make us "one", "as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee".

As the Scripture advises: if one comes in charity but is rejected, then 'shake the dust from the sandals, and move on'. The ball is in Moscow's court.

Blessings!

Reader Serge,

In the Latin Church a bishop may receive the title of archbishop as a personal title unconnected with the jurisdiction he has. Archbishop Tadeusz is such, Archbishop Fulton Sheen was another.

As I stated above, I look for the administrations to be made diocese immediately subject to Rome.

In Christ,

Lance, deacon candidate

Lance,

In the Latin Church a bishop may receive the title of archbishop as a personal title unconnected with the jurisdiction he has. Archbishop Tadeusz is such, Archbishop Fulton Sheen was another.

Good point. Thanks for the reminder.

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was another. He was once a jurisdictional archbishop, of Dakar, of the Church province of French West Africa. But before he retired (he started the Society of St Pius X after he retired) he was the bishop of Tulle, France, not an archiepiscopal see even though he was an archbishop and remained one personally.

Archbishop Nicholas Elko was another. After being pulled from the Ruthenian headship in America (they didn't call them metropolitans in his day, the 1960s) and living in Rome, he was assigned to the Roman archdiocese of Cincinnati as an auxiliary bishop. Again, not an archiepiscopal post. But he was and remained an archbishop. It has been said he expected to succeed the incumbent as archbishop of Cincinnati (he didn't), and perhaps his personal status as an archbishop was why, if that story is true.

http://oldworldrus.com

"Dublin is historically English turf"

Well, with that out of the way, to jump from the Catholic recognition of Orthodox orders to say the Catholic Church cannot establish regular structures for the pastoral care of faithful in union with her within the 'canonical territory' of a bishopric not in union with her is a little weak.

It was force one to ask by what authority did the Holy See have to establish the Ruthenian bishoprics in the USA within the canonical terriroty of the pre-existing Latin bishoprics?

K.

Ideally, post-reconciliation, the apostolic Church would revert to one bishop per see with only a possible accoutrement of ethnic/ritual vicars in a diocese/eparchy. (Imagine as a model the most excellent Russian Catholics in the US as they are now, under the administration of Roman ordinaries, but perhaps with a Russian "flying bishop' — a modern circuit-rider — as vicar.) Smaller dioceses and parishes, no titular bishops? In Russia, the Roman congregations of Germans and Poles would be under the patriarch of Moscow and all Rus'.

More thoughts on Italian Orthodoxy: it might not be all that new. I know the Italo-Greek and Italo-Albanian Byzantine Catholics have been in Italy for centuries (the Albanians were Orthodox to begin with) and I imagine are Italian-speaking. (I know someone partly of this heritage who is called Luigi.) Parts of Italy, including Sicily, were once Byzantine. I have read somewhere that there have been Eastern Orthodox living quietly in Italy all this time (I have not confirmed this)... or at least since Greeks and Albanians arrived after the fall of Byzantium.

In fact the longtime Greek presence in Italy may be an example of the multiritual patriarchates of the preschism Church.

Buona notte.

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Serge, The Italo-Greek-Albanian Byzantine Church is an interesting and unique example, that could, if their numbers were larger (70,000), serve as an impetus toward closer Catholic and Orthodox ties. They have had friendly relations with Greece, Albania, and Cyprus. Also, the EP's visit to Calabria in March of last year was a sign of Southern Italy's rediscovery of its Byzantine heritage and the region was called by the EP to serve as a bridge between East and West. The Italians(several years ago) invited monks of Athos to revivify the ancient Byzantine monastery of St. John Theristes in Bivongi in Calabria. There are other Orthodox churches established in the South, with the encouragement and hospitality of Southern Italians. Of course, Bari in Apulia, established a church for the Russian Orthodox. The town of Bari is the one which donated $500,000 toward rebuilding St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church in NYC. I could go on and on. Please read the information about Italy's Byzantine Catholics at this address:
http://www.byzantines.net/OurLadyofGrace/
Vito, Buona sera.

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: vito ]

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: vito ]

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: vito ]

A Clarification.

It seems that I have been confusing Aid to the Church in Russia with another SSPX affilated organization.

After looking at their website it appears that ACR is not interested in proselytizing but only in helping rebuild the Latin Church of the Polish, German, and Lithuanian ethnics in Russia. The are affilated with the NCCB and look like a worthy orgainzation. I post the websites of both them and Aid to the Church in Need, another worthy organization. Please give them both a look.

ACR http://www.aidrussia.org/Editorial.html

ACN http://www.aidtothechurchinneed.com/

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Lance ]