www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Are the Saints in Heaven?

A question suited to the coming Sunday of All Saints: Are the saints in heaven? My priest says not, excepting those who have gone there bodily: Mary, Elijah, and Enoch.

This claim opposes all I have ever been taught, how about you?

He says that when we die we go to either the place of comfort (specifically not heaven) or to the place of torment (specifically not hell) where we await the second coming, the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgment. Only then do we go to heaven or hell.

There is a text from, I think, Matins of All Saints Sunday which directly states that the saints are in heaven. I can not find it. If someone here could provide it, I would be grateful.

I am eager to hear all points of view on this subject, but particularly those based on the teachings of the Early Church.

The way that I have come to understand the Eastern concept of the after life is something akin to what the priest said, but not exactly...because he is excluding the concept of 'theosis' (or purgation as the West knows it), and how the saints (atleast most of them) have reached the final theosis or union with God, even while on earth. That is why St. Seraphim of Sarov glowed with light (the reason I suppose that saints are depicted with halos of light in art), and why other saints have bilocated-- while others have performed great miracles on earth and after their death.

IF they were not in Heaven with God, wouldn't we still need to pray for their souls with memorial services/panakhidas/mnymosyna, ? But we absolutely do NOT...we pray to THEM for their intercessions on behalf of the salvation of OUR souls here on earth!

Therefore, I personally find something a bit flawed in what you have heard. Ofcourse, there may be those who do not believe in the efficacy of prayer for the dead and the progression of theosis and purification after death.

In conclusion, I would say that this whole subject of eschatology can get confusing, even among those of the same confession.

What I think that we need to believe is that the Saints have achieved their soul's perfection and that is why they are able to do what they do and that is why the church prays to them and honours them. We also need believe in the final judgement (Nicene Creed) and the efficacy of our love and prayers in helping the souls of those who have passed on. Any more analyses than this, only creates confusion... and you know which fallen angel loves confusion!!!

In Christ,
Alice

I agree with what Alice says here, including her admonition about which fallen angel has a field day with confusion! (My answer would be: "all of them.")

As far as the early Church is concerned, just think of the Acts of the Apostles, especially of the account of the martyrdom of St. Stephen, Protodeacon and Protomartyr: the saints who were martyred were recognized instantly as sharing in the fulness of Christ's Sacrifice, and venerated as faithful servants.

Another fruitful meditation can be made on the attitudes expressed by St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew full well that he would suffer martyrdom for Christ, as well as the account known as the "Martyrdom of St. Polycarp".

As to the priest's teaching, perhaps he was simply referring to the idea that the fullness of what God has in store for us, will in fact not occur until the Resurrection of the body of each of us.

Best regards,
Michael

"We offer this sacrifice... Especially FOR our most holy, most pure, most blessed, and glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary"

We do pray to the Saints but also for them. Theosis is not complete until the Final Judgement.

Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Priest: Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary.

I take this differently--loving prayer on behalf of all who we remember. The Ever Virgin Mary is considered 'full of grace' and sinless from that time of the Annunciation in most Orthodox theological circles.

You are most certainly correct, however, in that the final judgment of our souls will be at: the final judgement!

Until that time, we who have not been deamed miraculous and worthy of sainthood, martyrdom, or passion-bearingdom, truly need all the prayers on our behalf that we can get!

In Christ our Hope,
Alice

I have understood, perhaps wrongly, that Theosis is never exactly "complete," heaven being an eternal ascent toward perfect union with God.

The Theotokos is in heaven by all accounts.

St. Paul tells of one who entered "the third heaven":

"I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12: 2).

This "third heaven" is then referred to as "paradise" in verse 4.

Our Lord told the repentant thief: "Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23: 43).

This "paradise" can also be called "heaven," can it not?

It seems to me that it is fitting to say that the saints are in heaven, but also to distiguish this from the new heaven that will come to be after the Final Judgment. It seems to me unscriptural and untraditional to say that the saints are not in heaven.

Certainly there is a difference between where they await the resurrection and where they will dwell with their glorified bodies, but surely both of these places are well-named "heaven."

Nice post Alice, very insightful too.
Stephanos i

Yes, heaven is not a static state--a kind of "retirement," if you will--but a state of active response to the limitless love of God. Theosis does not end at the Final Judgment, but goes on eternally. This is possible because God is infinite, and we can never be equal to Him.

Unscriptural, untraditional and completely Protestant.

According to Fr. Schmemann, we often make these distinctions because we don't have any concept of "God's time."

Even though we cannot understand it (having nothing to compare it with), we still have to realize that time and space as we know them pertain only to the created cosmos, and that God is in no way subject to them. From this perspective, we do not need to think of the saints as "waiting" for the Final Judgment, rather, it is perfectly consistent to say that the "two" Judgments are actually one. They happen at different times from our earthly perspective, but at the same time from God's perspective.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Who is Fr. Schmemann and can you recommend any titles?


I follow what you are saying here, to an extent, but there is still a reality of sequence and change that must be addressed.

When Christ descended into Hades, broke its gates, and lifted up Adam and Eve, as we see in the Resurrection icon, those who had died are clearly affected. There is a clear "before" and "after" this momentous event. There is a difference in the souls' experience before and after Christ's descent. Otherwise the "lifting up" would mean nothing.

So it must also be with the resurrection of the body and the Final Judgment. The soul that has been separated from its body will be reunited with its body on the day of resurrection. Again, there is a "before" and "after." There is a change from one experience to another experience - both realities. There is a sequence, even if that sequence is not time as we know it.

John,

Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann is commemorated at http://www.schmemann.org/. The site includes a number of essays by him, but his books are available from St. Vladimir's Seminary Press [svspress.com]. There is also an article about him in Wikipedia [en.wikipedia.org] .

His best known title is Introduction to Liturgical Theology, but the work I am most familiar with is The Eucharist (Sacrament of the Kingdom). Here he uses the concept of God's time to explain how the Eucharist makes us truly present at the Last Supper, and thus also with Christ in heaven.

OK, I may have gone too far in saying they are "one event." However, speaking freely, it always seemed to me completely redundant that there had to be two judgments, when there was not the slightest possibility of a different verdict! Reading Fr. Schmemann simply helped me to think this was possible.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Interesting and insightful....thanks.

Alice

Don't wish to offend anyone, but the questioner requested all opinions, so here goes:

The question is strange. Where else would the Saints be, if not in Heaven? Keep in mind the words of Our Savior to the Good Thief.

Praying "for" the Saints can be found in some very old texts, which come from the time when the Church's practice had not yet fully distinguished between prayers for the dead and the veneration of the Saints - hence that prayer "for" the Theotokos in the Anaphora of Saint John Chrysostom. By the same token, the Liturgy of Saint Basil includes the words "Glory to thee" addressed to the Theotokos. Since the Church respects what is old, we do not reject that text - but neither do we permit the use of that expression addressed to anyone but God in any other context.

As I trust we all know, we do not worship the Saints, we venerate them, and we ask their intercessions for us, trusting in God to make this known to the Saint or Saints whom we address in our prayers.

Thus: "All ye holy Saints of God, entreat the Lord for us!"

Fr. Serge

Dear Father Serge,

How oculd you possibly offend anyone when you are rightly teaching the theology of the Church! Thank you for clarifying for the poster who initiated the thread....

In Christ,
Alice

Amen!

ALICE:

In other threads about the Liturgy we've touched on this concept. In eternity, time, space, distance, and eternity itself are one and the same. We have an eternal "now" that has no before or after. It's all immediate. That's a lot to wrap one's head around.

This whole concept is also linked to the Divine Liturgy. When we enter the Divine Liturgy we enter eternity where the Last Supper, the Passion, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the Glorious Second Coming are all happening immediately. But in and through the Liturgy we are there. And then it ends, since whatever we do has time limits because we are still time limited, and we return to our time and place to put the gifts received into action to draw the rest of the world to Christ by our example. I liken it to having a door opened for awhile--through which we go and are then sent back with the door closing until the next time it is opened.

Even more specific, I like to think that when the Lamb is raised for all to see--"Holy Things are for the Holy"--that in Christ all of this fused oneness is part of His Very Person as, for example, all love arises and is His Person; all mercy arises and is His Person, etc. The Holy Gifts are the point where time, space, distance, and eternity become one because all is one in Christ.

I once heard a missionary speak about this when I was a child. He told us we were all on TV. He elaborated on that by saying that our every action is already being replayed for the entire created group called mankind at the Last Judgment. In effect, we are not only living, and moving, and having our being in Christ now in time, but also seeing ourselves in the pattern that holds our reward or punishment for eternity. This sermon continues to rattle around in my head as I have tried to understand it and the concept of the eternal "now."

In Christ,

BOB