www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News ARCHBISHOP CLEMENT RECEIVES A REPRESENTATIVE OF VATICAN

My dear Brendan,

First off, that is a fine Irish name be you one or not – great saint indeed.

I find it interesting that your posts generally seem rather flippant. In addition you routinely presume much, which is an error and given you grasp of material rather sad. I would humbly suggest you not do so, as it undermines your credibility to a certain extent. You appear to have much to say of great merit, but it is difficult to wade through all the rest of the gibberish in order to get to the meat of your wisdom.

For the record, as if we are to engage in dialogue it is only fair you know where I come from in order to better grasp a handle on my words and their intent (I know split infinitive), I was not always a believer of anything other than myself and instant, frequent gratification.

I was born and raised a Catholic in the Roman (reformed) Rite. However, I left the faith early in high school, as I did not believe in G-d. I became a moral relativist and a "wanna be' socialist. It is only after I fell completely on my face after the abortion of my child (which I had no problems with intellectually before hand, but after the experience … much different) that I began to see that there had to be a G-d, or life simply was not worth living anymore.

I looked for Him, and my place in faith, first in Judaism. I loved my time there, but I was never Mitzvahed. I learned a lot from Rabbi Cohen. The reason I did not fully become a Jew was because I came to think that the Messiah had already come. So, I looked for Him within the Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Anglican traditions – I know, an Irishman from a nationalist family spending time in Anglicanism – truly weird. I loved those traditions and churches much. I developed my love of Scripture there and frankly, I've never seen anyone better dressed for any sort of religious service than I did at the Presbyterian Church.

However, I eventually came back to Catholicism after attending the “World Youth Day "93” in Denver at the request of my mom. In my faith journey I went on to discern a priestly vocation for four years – though not all of it formally. This was the very best time of my life.

As a result of some shenanigans at the Novus Ordo masses of the Latin Rite parish I belonged to, I eventually checked out a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic church and a Byzantine-Ukrainian Catholic church. I enjoyed it, but couldn't quite break from the Latin Rite. After joining this message board and asking some questions regarding the Divine Office and how it was used in the eastern traditions I began to take a closer look into the Eastern Rites and after coming to appreciate them more fully I decided to choose between the Byzantine-Ukrainian and Byzantine-Ruthenian that are here. I have enjoyed my time there and am truly in awe of the sacredness with which the mass, oops sorry, the Divine Liturgy, is celebrated by both lay and ordained alike!

I have earned a double major in business and history. I am now attending university to work towards a doctorate in psychology. I can read, write and speak two languages (English and Geailge [Irish Gaelic]) and can work my way through, admittedly with much difficulty, two more (Hebrew and Latin). So, while I am certainly not as wise as Solomon, or most people here to be sure, I am not entirely daft either. I would humbly, respectfully ask you to dispense with the childish snipes and really "stick it to me' where it counts – on an adult level. You will never be able to "convert', so to say, anyone while acting in that manner. Indeed, you only succeed in pushing people away with your attitude.

So, I am new, but not entirely ignorant of this rite. And with all due respect, my good fellow, there is a Byzantine Rite that is a part of the Catholic Church. I have learned from my new faith family at one such rite that this is often a cri-de-guerre, or "battle cry', of those Orthodox who are bitter, jealous, and/or angry with Oriental or Eastern Rite Catholics. I would like to engage you in dialogue and debate where necessary, but I ask you to do so in a mature manner. Lest we fall into that same old high school game of tit for tat, which is so unbecoming to as keen a mind as yourself.

I have admitted that I am new and openly asked for correction where it is applicable. I have even stated that I would admit to my errors in public. In truth I have come here looking for a better understanding of the east. This east that I find myself so enthralled with. But, alas, you failed to offer any of substance in this case – so be it. I will look for the material you posted and read it – and I thank you for that; this is precisely what is needed for understanding and informed dialogue.

I, myself, am nothing. Without G-d I am not. It is because of He that I am anything at all. I have difficulties with my faith, but then again that is because I have inherited the fallen nature of the original sin. When I see Rome or anyone else acting inappropriately I call them on it. I expect no less for myself and I will give no less to others. To do so would be the epitome of an uncharitable nature. Rome has been at fault. But, so has the Orthodox. Neither seems to be entirely blameless in this childish game. My response was not a typical one for a Catholic. Most Catholics I know would just as soon be dead than to admit to error on the part of their forefathers. The attempt to characterize my observations, and indeed my questions, as typical of a Catholic show considerable lack of observation on your own part.

I have problems with my faith like anyone who is a believer. But, in the end, I submit my will to that of G-d's. After all, isn't that what faith really is – a submission of the will to accept what can not always be proven by man's means? For me, a sinner, the greatest pray I am capable of ejaculating is, “Lord, I believe, help my unbelief.” That prayer alone illustrates better than the wisest of us here could hope to ever do the nature and condition of humanity. I say this pray every night with the intention that it is offered for the reparation and reconciliation of the faith. So that one day there will not be this endless cycle of ridiculously childish tit for tat 'ism. Humility seems to be sorely lacking in the dialogue between some of those who know more than we (the Current Church fathers of both the east and the west) as well as some those here. I myself am guilty of this, so I accuse myself first.

Ah, yes, humility is a lost virtue and pride is rampant…Satan must be happy. More's the pity of it too.

Slan go foill,
Donnchadh

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Donnchadh ]

Donnchadh,

Your story is truly inspiring. I am glad you have found a home in the Byzantine Catholic Church. I do have one request though. Please no talk of "rites".

The One, Holy Catholic Church is made up of several particular Churches that may or may not share a liturgical rite. A Church encompasses more than a liturgical rite. It includes historical, cultural, theological, ecclesiological, and canonical differences that go far beyond a rite. These are the things that make up a particular, autonomous Church.

You will find some in our Churches that continue with the terminology of "rite" because they fear calling ourselves Churches is somehow being rebellious or disloyal to the Pope. I find this amusing since the Pope himself, as well as Canon Law speak of us as Churches not rites.

So please be proud to name yourself a member of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Lance et al, well, I stand corrected. I apologize to anyone who has taken offense to the term.

However, in my own defense, it is not only literature on the subject which has lead me to the use of this term (of which there is much), but the deacon at the parish itself. In fact, it is he and some others (though I don't quite know what their exact administrative/pastoral purpose is yet) who have made this point very clear to me and underpinned it by teaching me of some of the problems that the Orthodox brethren seem to have with the Eastern Catholics; this being one of them. Not to mention that they remind me all the time that they are Catholics, of a different “rite,” and NOT a separate Church. They explain the ”rite” as encompassing everything you listed, which is more than liturgy. This is how I was using the term... more than liturgy. I presumed that this was a given and understood, as you are all more aware of what it is to be eastern than I. Again, I based this off of the teaching I am myself getting.

As you are yourself a candidate for the deaconate, I will take your words under informed and serious advisement. However, I am going to have to try to speak to Fr. Frank about it, as I am getting two contradictory trains of thought on this matter from men more 'in the know' than I and I am all the more confused now than I was when I knew nothing…how extremely frustrating. I am sure the problem lies within me and not their education, instruction.

I appreciate the heads up and will look into it further and amend myself as needed. Thanks.

Slan go foill mo chara,
Donnchadh

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Donnchadh ]

Donnchadh,

The problem does not lie with you. It lies within our own Churches. The differing explanations you got from your priest and deacon and myself are common. However, with no disrespect to your priest or deacon, what I stated is the only position can be proven with official Church documents.

But do not take either my word or your priest's, please research and read the documents for yourself. Orientalium Ecclesiarum, Orientale Lumen, Dominus Iesus, the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches all testify to what I have written. (Notice that Church is the word used to describe us, not rite. Ecclesiarum translates as Churches not rites)

As I stated many people in our Churches fear that by stating we are Churches were are being disloyal or un-Catholic. I think they have a poor understanding of ecclesiology. The One Catholic Church headed by the Pope is made up of several particular Churches. To say this is in no way implying we are somehow like two seperate denominations simply engaging in Eucharistic intercommunion as the Lutheran and Episcopal CHurches do. We are at the same time one Church and many Churches and in this we are a refelction of the Trinity.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

As someone else once said:

"never mind"

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: DTBrown ]

The Lance person is 100% correct. The Eastern Churches are indeed that: Churches. And these Churches are voluntarily in communion with the Holy See in Rome. While some folks have the idea that to be 'in communion with Rome' necessitates kow-towing to Roman beliefs and practices, the fact is that the Universal Church (speaking through the Councils) mandates otherwise.

Unfortunately, Eastern Catholics have too often fallen victim to the belief that "Roman is the norm", and this has caused a lot of criticism from our Orthodox brethren in the East. In most cases, the criticism is justified. However, the idea that Orthodoxy represents a better manifestation of Eastern reality (theology, liturgy, culture, etc.) is not exactly what is proposed. As a result of Orthodox nationalist perspectives, and the "my territory" "your territory" stuff, there are divisions within Orthodoxy that are less than beneficial to the Church. Estonia provides the prime example: "Moscow's territory" but independent minded enough to approach the Ecumenical Patriarchate to ask for independence. And the Muscovites drop Constantinople from the Dyptichs for 'interfering' in Moscow's realm. And the same is about to happen with Ukraine. And the Ukrainians are strong enough, and numerous enough, and noisy enough to make the fight for their own hegemony a serious issue. AND, they were actually the origin of the Northern Slavic Christian communities. ( I suppose that some Orthodox could tell me to butt out since I'm not part of the "Orthodox Church", but I just can't resist the need to come to the defense of our other fellow Christians who are being told that they are part of 'someone else's territory' and should just acquiesce.) For some strange reason, I just don't think that the Ukrainian people are going to just roll over and play dead as a result of somebody else's decree. The Ukrainians and the Greeks are very much alike: Don't tell us what to do, or you've got a fight.

So, we really shouldn't hear of the "my territory" or "your territory" stuff unless and until the people concerned say that this is OK. Otherwise it is just ecclesiastical colonialism. And we know where that will end up.

Blessings!

Dear Donnchadh --

"I find it interesting that your posts generally seem rather flippant."

I would humbly request that you lighten up. I have not always been so "flippant", myself.

"You appear to have much to say of great merit, but it is difficult to wade through all the rest of the gibberish in order to get to the meat of your wisdom."

Again, lighten up. I'm not here to enlighten anyone with my wisdom :-). Sometimes the discussions here get heated, that's life.

"I was born and raised a Catholic in the Roman (reformed) Rite."

Well, we have something in common, then. That's a start.

"So, I looked for Him within the Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Anglican traditions – I know, an Irishman from a nationalist family spending time in Anglicanism – truly weird."

No, it's actually not that uncommon. There are quite a few Irish Americans in the ECUSA, I think.

"I developed my love of Scripture there and frankly, I've never seen anyone better dressed for any sort of religious service than I did at the Presbyterian Church."

ROTFL! That's true. Orthodox are in the middle, but tend to be somewhat better dressed than RCs these days (but not like denominational protestants).

"As a result of some shenanigans at the Novus Ordo masses of the Latin Rite parish I belonged to,"

Ah, better be careful. There are a few here who don't like us to speak about such shenanigans.

"I enjoyed it, but couldn't quite break from the Latin Rite."

Understandable -- it's a rather different tradition.

"So, while I am certainly not as wise as Solomon, or most people here to be sure, I am not entirely daft either."

Again, lighten up. I didn't suggest you were daft.

"I would humbly, respectfully ask you to dispense with the childish snipes"

I didn't think I was sniping, but so be it.

"You will never be able to "convert', so to say, anyone while acting in that manner."

And it has never been my intention in anything I post here to convert anyone.

"And with all due respect, my good fellow, there is a Byzantine Rite that is a part of the Catholic Church."

It is a particular church that uses the Byzantine rite -- as Lance has pointed out. That was the point of my earlier post to you -- you misused the word "Rite" (as is common for Latin Catholics). Rather than trying to convert anyone, I was actually sticking up for the Eastern Catholics' rites.

"those Orthodox who are bitter"

Don't know too many of these, to be honest -- but there probably are some, particularly in some jurisdictions (I'm thinking of Johnstown).

", jealous,"

Again, what is the jealousy argument? I have never met an Orthodox who was jealous of the Eastern Catholics.

"and/or angry with Oriental or Eastern Rite Catholics."

That is more accurate. There is quite a bit of anger in some circles.

"But, alas, you failed to offer any of substance in this case – so be it."

So be it indeed, but read more closely.

"Most Catholics I know would just as soon be dead than to admit to error on the part of their forefathers."

Dunno about that. What I get from Catholics all the time is that we Orthodox are *&^%^^& because we haven't apologized like the Pope has -- in other words, the various Papal apologies are now being used as swords by Catholic apologists with their Orthodox interlocutors.

Brendan

Dear Brendan,

The Balamand Statement mentions two items raised by Donnchadh.

One is that the Eastern Churches have the right to exist, something agreed by both sides.

We have no need to apologise for that.

As for the historic Unia itself, requests for apologies should be directed to the appropriate department in the Vatican.

The second item is the fact that Eastern Catholics were sometimes forced to return to their Mother Churches in inappropriate ways or words to that effect.

The Orthodox Church was not complicit, since its hand was forced by the civil authorities in such situations.

But now I think the Orthodox in the respective areas where this occurred could also apologise not for directly committing sin, but by failing to protest against this injustice, sin nevertheless.

We sin by what we do and by what we fail to do.

Alex