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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Free Greek:
"..... and they certainly feel no

reason to apologize for the Unia."

It's called (within the context)....sarcasm.


Jealousy? Um...well...NO!

But, like you said, you are new and you can't be expected to know much of anything about the Orthodox.

FG

“Not all southern Irishmen hate the English. Many served in the British armed forces in World War II and even after complete Irish independence in 1949. I have met one who served in the RAF in the '50s, even though he is from the Republic originally.”

Uhm, I never said "an Gael', be they from Ulaidh, Connachta, Laighin, or Mumhain (Ulster, Connaught, Leinster, or Munster), hate the English. Your first sentence stealthily implies that “Northern Irishmen” do hate the English. How do you come to this? A good military man will respect his foe and not hate him, lest he be blinded and loose – that is basic military philosophical thought. The Irish did/do not hate the English (better term would be British, but&#8230 they simply want their freedom from a foreign crown. There is a difference.

There is no doubt that many Irish served the crown well in the armed forces. The same could be said of science, literature (pound for pound there are more Irish giants in English Literature than English), sport, politics, etc. Where does this one come from?

The Irish were independent as of “the '16” – it just took the English 33 years to recognize it

Slan go foill,
Donnchadh

"Can someone please explain “why” there “needs” to be an apology for the Unia?"

Read the Balamand Agreement.

"As I am new to the Byzantine Catholic Rite,"

Well, for starters, it's not a "Rite", but a "Church" that uses a particular "rite".

"the Orthodox brethren are simply being jealous"

Jealous of what?

"and overbearing"

Sometimes this is true. Rome has been overbearing itself at times, as have the Eastern Catholics themselves. All are guilty of this.

"and that Rome more often than not (in order to placate the Orthodox) move quietly and on egg shells with regard to anything that is valid and needed for the Eastern Catholics"

And so, what would you say is valid and needed? Everything Latin Catholics believe?

"I would humbly suggest the Orthodox get over it already"

The standard Catholic line, and therefore unsurprising.

"and that Rome quit being so afraid to give the pallium to Eastern Catholic prelates in public"

Well, this clarifies things. Obedience to Rome ueber alles, eh?

Brendan

Dear Reader Sergius,

To be sure!

But the majority of "post-national consciousness achieved" Ukrainians would not agree.

They would also regard those you mentioned as Ukrainians with an under-developed sense of national/cultural identity. Thus the warning regarding speaking at perogie bakes .

In principle, yes the Eastern Slavs are related to one another, three Russias as you say.

The term "Rus'" was something that Patriarch Josef Slipyj included in his definition of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, as well he did.

It was really only in the time of Peter the Great that the term "Russian" was insisted upon by this Tsar - under the influence of his Ukrainian advisors.

Before then, it was "Muscovy" and the Duchy of the same.

"Rus'" is the historical name for the Kyivan Church and people.

It became problematic with the experience of Muscovite colonialism. But it was a mistake to have discarded it.

Alex

Originally posted by me 9 February and worth repeating as it answers some of Donnchadh's questions.

"Such a Kievan Catholic Church may be vibrant and 100% orthodox, great in the short term but again, disastrous in the long run for Church relations in the Russias. What was Balamand all about? Hot air? I hope not. The Catholic communion setting up its own “little Orthodoxy” in Kiev, in the middle of Patriarch Alexis II's canonical territory, is revived Uniatism and goes against what Balamand said.'

http://oldworldrus.com

Dear Brendan,

First Free Greek, and now you? I just don't like the new guys on the block being bullied, that's all . . .

"Valid and needed." You should know better than that. Donnchadh refers not to Latin doctrines, but to what is necessary to the Particular Oriental Churches in union with Rome for the exercise of their ecclesial life as such i.e. recognition of their Patriarchal status etc.

Sheesh, but we're sensitive this morning!

"Standard Catholic reply." So the fact that the ROC believes the Eastern Catholics of Western Ukraine should have no status other than as vassals of Moscow is not even worthy of critical assessment and examination?

Donnchadh wasn't "standardly Catholic" when he blamed BOTH Rome and the ROC.

He showed an objective balance in his post that is sometimes absent in supporters of either.

Alex

Dear Reader Sergius,

For the record, Kyiv (not "Kiev" as in continued Russian colonial spelling) is NOT in Alexis' canonical territory.

The ROC and supporters of the spiritual colonialism of the same may think so, to be sure.

The Ukrainian Orthodox I know in Kyiv have nothing against the existence of the Ukrainian Catholic Church there in that Orthodox City.

It is a purely Russian concern, since closer ties between Ukraine, Catholic and Orthodox, will help spell the end of Russian religious colonialism that is falling fast on the heels of its political colonialism.

Got it?

Alex

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Orthodox Catholic ]

Dear Donnchadh,

I think you will find among Byzantine Catholics a great love and appreciation for the Holy See, based not only on its assistance in recent times but, based on the upbringing we received from our parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles, a appreciation for all the Holy See has done historically.

Our has been a difficult pilgramage, but a rewarding one nevertheless. We are proud to have you as a new pilgrim. No need for you to revist the stoney parts of the path which have already been tread.

The post-Communist world (the gift our Our Lady of Fatima, the Catholic inspired Polish Independent Trade Union movement, the underground Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the continuation of the Prague Spring), bring many opportunities for renewal and evangelization.

Let us pray that we act in a worthy manner to honor the liberation which was earned for us the bravery of East European Catholics and secularists against the Russian Soviet Empire.

K.

Dear Kurt,

After wiping the tears from my eyes following your last post, I just wanted to add two points.

One is that Eastern Catholics have indeed found fault with the Holy See, on both sides of the pond, and this with good reason. This doesn't impact on their loyalty, but also didn't make for good inter-Church relations. Hopefully, these are improving.

Secondly, while Our Lady of Fatima is a wonderful devotion, as the RC theologians on ecumenical committees with the Orthodox have said themselves, the symbolism of this devotion has become highly negative for Orthodoxy given the way a number of traditionalist RC groups have interpreted and used Fatima's message with respect to the "conversion" of the Orthodox.

As one Orthodox theologian, who believes in Fatima, said, the Fatima message is fulfilled in Russia since people are returning to the (Orthodox) Church and are receiving the Mysteries/Sacraments.

Alex

Alex,

Thank you for your two points. Let me add two more.

These ultra-wacky Catholic traditionalists need to be left to their memorial Masses for Franco. We can't have the whole church stepping around them and their rigidness.

While we must be undestanding and ecumencial, we also can't wholey revolve around those KGB pensioners who are ROC hierarchs.

Fatima said to pray for Russia. Russia became the greatest threat to human freedom and religion besides Hilter. To defeat Hitler, hundreds of thousands died. With Communism we had the insane defense build up ("a theft from the poor" -Paul VI) promoted on the Right and the fellow-travelling promoted on the Left.

In nothing less than a mircle -- and a mricle of Fatima I believe -- Communism was brought down. Not by World War. Not by 'reform'. And, to be honest, not because the ROC suddenly decided not be the Church of the Russian establishment (atheist or czarist) and actually stand up for her people she claims but does not minister to, but by the Catholic inspired Solidarity Movement, Rukh, and JPII.

The evil empire was brought down without a war.

We take this so causually today.

But is was a bishop dressed in white as seen by three peasant children under the guidance of Fatima that did it.

Fatima was about bringing down the Russian Soviet Empire. Outside of this forum I never heard this theory that is was meant to cause the conversion of Orthodox to Catholicism.

Fatima shows the power of prayer.

K.

Serge:
So where do "post-national" Ukrainians come from? Test-tubes? Maybe they were hatched?

Some of the biggest Ukrainian-nationalist Carpathian People(tm) I know were begotten by American Russian Orthodox parents.

At some point, many people learn to think for themselves, and when they do, many of the children of "pre-national" Ukrainians, in various eras, wind up as conscious Ukrainians.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

Whatever was, was.

The reality today is that we have a free, independent and sovereign Ukraine. For those who are against that, they are opponents of human freedom.

K.

Long Live Free Ukraine
Long Live Free Slovakia
Long Live Free America

Another component of this Rome-Russia dichotomy is that even in Ukraine, those Orthodox who belong to the Moscow Patriarchate are said to be anti-Ukrainian, do not accept that Ukraine is a sovereign state, etc., while on the Russian side, it is said that Rome is responsible for Ukrainian separatism, destroying the unity of Rus'/Russia, etc.

Being that the truth usually lies somewhere in between, what can we say about Patriarch Josyf Slipyj who was so critical in his day of the Vatican's Ostpolitik which was so Moscow-centered at the expense of the catacomb Ukrainian Church[es]? Has Alexy II ever shown support for the sovereignty of Ukraine? I think Rome, acknowledging as it does the Moscow Patriarchate as the legitimate Orthodox Church in Ukraine, can be absolved of suspicion of maintaining an anti-Russian political position...

Dear RichC,

Yes, I agree.

The issues here go beyond the mere "Catholic-Orthodox" ecumenical paradigm.

They are also about enduring Russian imperial issues, as encapsulated in the MP.

Brendan would say we hate the MP. We oppose, however, its enduring imperialism that it hasn't gotten over as far as Ukraine is concerned.

Reader Sergius' comments about "Kiev" reflect his own position, which he is entitled to have.

We just disagree with it, that's all.

When it comes to Orthodoxy, no one is better to comment here than Brendan or Reader Sergius.

On the score of Russian colonialism, especially as that exercised by the MP, this matter is of another matter altogether, whether or not our friends appreciate it.

It is a sore point for us, and we're not going to let anyone tell us about it, just like no one can tell the Greeks about the oppression they felt under the Turks etc.

And that's all I'll say without giving further offence. I apologise if I have, but we all have our taboos.

Alex

Dear Kurt,

I was a member of the Blue Army of Fatima for years and I can readily attest to the fact that Russia's conversion to Catholicism was most definitely a goal of our intercession!

But you express yourself well.

You must make quite the impression on a date . . .

Alex