www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News "Ecclesial Unity" of Mar Bawai's Flock

I noticed that whenever we wrote about this series of events on our group blog - really, any post that so much as mentioned "Mar Bawai" - within hours we would have some of the rudest, most vitriolic and defammatory comments being made about Mar Bawai and the priests, deacons and laity that came into union with him. I don't know if it was several individuals who happened to be engaged in the same combox warrior campaign or if it was otherwise organized.

There is a very angry subset who is remarkably vocal. I would not be surprised if talks shut down for several years to let them (and those that then answered them) cool off for a bit.

While some here may rejoice in the further splintering of an ancient Apostolic Church, others most assuredly do not.

Rather than just suspending 'talks' for a time, the Catholicos should well consider terminating them permanently and abrogating any 'understandings' previously reached with the Patriarch of Rome (i.e. the "Common Chrtistological Declaration Between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East" and "Guidelines for Admission to the Eucharist Between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East").

Hopefully these events will serve as a wake up call to Mar Dinkha and bring to the forefront the stark reality of the price any church eventually pays when dealing with the devil (price = literally; devil = metaphorically).
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Never mind that (going by your profile) as an Antiochian Orthodox in your play book the repudiation of the join Christological declarations (which puts the Assyrians squarely in the position of orthodoxy from the Antiochian vantage point) would be a step backwards from what your own Church recognizes as orthodox.

So the question is begged, why would you propose such a thing and what is your driving motivation. Being newer here (this being your fourth post out and the first I have read) I don't have a great understanding of your style of argument rooted in the experience of reading other posts from you... But I am left to wonder if anti-Roman animosity is trumping a legitimately wonderful advance. Why on earth else would an Orthodox call for the Assyrians to repudiate Christiological declarations that helped to solidify that the "Nestorians" were in fact not Nestorian all these centuries after all? Save for an anti-Roman ideology, this call of yours makes no sense.

You are thinking it is wiser for the Assyrians - largely fleeing or having fled the homeland, with their Patriarch in Chicago, and the Oriental Orthodox blocking their admission to the Middle Eastern Council of Churches to embrace further isolation? If and when a bishop like Mar Bawai comes to an understanding of the Catholic Church that compels him to follow a path to unia he should not?

Calling for repudiation of orthodox statements because the fruit in this case has lead to greater unia seems rather like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

And the comments about "dealing with the devil" - I am sorry, no quick disclaimer about metaphor changes the insult leveled there.

Read carefully - "abrogating any 'understandings' previously reached with the Patriarch of Rome" - as I am quite sure you understand were you not trying to be obtuse, I was alluding not to the theological clairifications contained within the Christoligical Declaration, but rather a repudiation of the connection the Declaration has with the Archbishop of Rome.

As for the Church of the East and its past and present splintering due in large part to its interaction with your 'churches' - the reality speaks for itself. If you find the allusion to dealing with the devil offensive, imagine how those left dealing with the aftermath of such dealings must feel.
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If that is the tone you take - do not be surprised if your time here is short.

As strongly as we disagree with each other from time to time, I was always proud of the fact that we talk to each other with more civility than that.

Referring to our churches with quotation marks is rude.

If you think I misunderstand your point, charitably clarify, don't make reference to being obtuse.

If you think your insults are OK because you percieve us to be insulting, that is remarkably telling and sad.

I second this.

I don't understand the poster's animosity here. Mar Bawai was already excommunicated from the AssyrianCoE, by which he was already separated from that Church. He had started the Assyrian Catholic Apostolic 'Church of the East' with his own priests, deacons, and laity. Whether or not Mar Bawai joined the Chaldean Church, he would have been separated from the AssyrianCoE. So what exactly is the beef here with him, other than disagreeing with his reasons? Had Mar Bawai not joined the Chaldean Church, there would have been 4 splinters within the Assyrian East Syriac community (AssyrianCoE, AncientCoE, Chaldean Catholic, and ACACoE), now that the Chaldean Church and ACACoE have become one, the further fracture has been mitigated.

Mar Bawai reconciliation with the Catholic Church draws many parallels to that of Mar Ivanios of the Malankara Syrian Catholic Church. He was the one deputized to conduct talks for reconciliation, agreements were made, the Holy Synod agreed.. for whatever reason when the time came, the majority pulled out of the agreement and Mar Ivanios was the lone bishop to reconcile (eventually more joined, when they saw that the union was successful and that the Church didn't lose it's Traditions).

Michael Thoma:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed he is Risen!!

Thank you for the clarification about this bishop and his flock. I didn't know the full story when I was "wondering" above. I thought he was simply suspended and there was a possibility of reconciliation with his Patriarch. If one is out in the cold, so to speak, it does make sense to examine one's position and seek to be re-established with an Apostolic Church so that one has, again, the roots one started with.

If I, by my "wondering" started this vitriolic exchange, please forgive me. My learning curve is slow and close to the ground.

In Christ,

BOB

Thank you for rembering me the figure of Mar Ivanios.
A question
In a site (catholic-hierarchy [catholic-hierarchy.org] ) is written that Mar Ivanios was ordained bishop in 1932 after his union with the Catholic Church, while in other sites (link [lightoflife.com] ) is written that Mar Ivanios was ordained bishop in 1925 still by the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.
Probably he was ordained bishop two times: but this is quite strange because I supposed that the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of apostolic succession the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church.

Also Mar Bawai Soro shall be ordained bishop by Catholic bishops?

Dear Antv,

The Catholic-Hierarchy site is incorrect, Mar Ivanios was ordained to the episcopate by Moran Mor Beselios Geevarghese I, Catholicos of the Malankara Church in 1925. When he became Catholic, he was formally appointed to the titular See in Feb. 1932 and installed to the titular See in May 1932. He was soon moved to the See in Trivandrum.

Michael is technically correct. David Cheney, a Latin Catholic and the admin/webmaster/owner of Catholic-Hierarchy.org (and a member here) does an incredible job of single-handedly maintaining that site - which is a treasure of information. He is, understandably, a bit hampered at times by the difficulty involved in appropriately identifying and documenting some of the little "peculiarities" that don't fit the usual pattern - the majority of which seem to involve our Churches .

David is, however, very open to corrections and suggestions that will make his site more historically accurate. I'm going to be in contact with him sometime in the next few weeks about a couple of other matters and I'll bring this to his attention at that time.

Many years,

Neil

One person does that?! Amazing.

This very interesting development has now come to the attention of Britain's Catholic Herald newspaper: "Thousands of Iraqi Christians cross the Tiber" [catholicherald.co.uk] (23 May 2008).

News to me too!

Hats off to that gent. That is NO small feat.