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An online friend is doing a paper for school on East and West Church relations. What information can you give him on various agreements, meetings between Orthodoxy and Catholicism?
Last edited by Addai; 05/07/08 05:47 AM.
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Shlomo Addai,
It would be easier for your friend to contact the various Eastern Orthodox Churches to find documentation. You have the situation where the Antiochene Orthodox Church is almost at the point of Communion with the Catholic Church to the Greek Orthodox Church in Greece where parts of it is willing to break Communion with Orthodoxy if that means joint Communion with Catholicism.
Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon
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ADDAI:
Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!
I think the major breakthrough that has occurred in my own lifetime is the fact that we are talking to each other. We're even praying together and, while we are far from communion in the Mysteries, we do attend each other's Eucharistic Worship. When I was yet in high school--some 40+ years ago--that was almost unheard of; everyone was still looking at each other with suspicion. For Catholics to set foot in another Church's or ecclesial community's church was thought to be akin to apostasy.
On Pascha my wife and I were invited to be the guests of our friends--my wife's employer and her husband--at his parish for the Divine Liturgy. Loretta had never experienced the Divine Liturgy. Her father once told her we should not pray together because he learned that I used Byzantine prayers and a Byzantine prayerbook--so I couldn't be a "good Catholic." (Of course, to him everyone who wasn't Italian wasn't a good Catholic either--all of us Germans included.) Different, for some people growing up in my era, was bad, wrong, and evil.
40 years ago this forum would not have been possible. Here we learn from each other; we share; we care about each other; we even pray for each other. We have learned that "the other" is a flesh and blood human being like us who just happens to have been raised and educated in a different way than we have been. And we have learned that that is not altogether bad, wrong, or evil. We have begun--IMHO--to see that the Mystery of God becoming man in order that we might become like Him is bigger than all our expressions of it. We've begun to share our spitiual treasures--many of which are our own common heritage that we may have forgotten was our shared heritage. We share a lot--a lot more than we realize.
That's my assessment of the past 40+ years. Strictly my humble opinion.
In Christ,
BOB
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Thanks theophan and Yuhannon! I did learn from reading the back threads of East-West board, of this meeting that is highly significant. http://www.zenit.org/article-21815?l=english
Last edited by Addai; 05/07/08 10:45 PM.
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The leaders of the Armenian Apostolic Church visited Rome this week. EWTNews 7-May-2008 -- EWTNews Brief Pope, Armenian Patriarch Committed to Christian Unity Vatican, May. 7, 2008 (CWNews.com) - At his regular weekly public audience on May 7, Pope Benedict XVI welcomed the head of the Armenian Apostolic Church to Rome, and spoke about the urgency of ecumenical work. In greeting Catholicos Karekin II, the Holy Father said that the Armenian patriarch's visit "revives our hope for the full unity of all Christians." He saluted the "commitment of the Armenian Apostolic Church to ecumenical dialogue." As the Christian world prepares to celebrate the feast of Pentecost, the Pope said, the faithful should pray for a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit, conscious that the Spirit "renews the earth and creates unity where before there was division." "We have the certainty that the Lord Jesus never abandons us in our search for unity," the Pope said, "because his Spirit is tirelessly at work to support the efforts we make to overcome all forms of division." He went on to say that the Spirit creates "the great community which is the Church in all the world." Christianity is always in a state of expectation, like the apostles before the first Pentecost, the Pope continued. The faithful "pray incessantly to obtain ever-new effusions of the gifts of the holy Spirit." He added that "we too invoke these gifts on all Christians," hoping that the followers of Christ will form a sign of unity visible to all the world. Pope Benedict invited Catholicos Karekin to address the audience in St. Peter's square, and the Armenian patriarch reaffirmed his commitment to the cause of restoring Christian unity. Karekin II also said, during his brief remarks, that the world should recognize the suffering of the Armenian people in the genocide of the early 20th century. Earlier Pope Benedict had said that the appearance of his distinguished guest "serves to remind us of the severe persecutions suffered by Armenian Christians, especially during the last century." www.ewtn.com [ ewtn.com]
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40 years ago this forum would not have been possible. True, but only because the Internet was not available then. 40 years ago brings us to 1968, when there were already lively and fruitful discussions between Catholics and Orthodox on a whole variety of subjects. Fr. Serge
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Dear 40 years ago this forum would not have been possible. True, but only because the Internet was not available then. 40 years ago brings us to 1968, when there were already lively and fruitful discussions between Catholics and Orthodox on a whole variety of subjects. Fr. Serge Dear Father Serge, Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen! Father Bless, Truly spoken. The Byzantine Daily Worship was published by the Melkite Greek Catholic Church in 1969 and is still used by many Greek Orthodox parishes. At that time, it took three to five years to publish a book. It was a collaborative effort, and it was lauded by both East and West. Respectfully in Christ, Elizabeth
Last edited by Elizabeth Maria; 05/20/08 01:00 PM.
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Father Serge:
Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!
Father bless!!
What I meant was, that in my limited experience in the rural region where I grew up, we still weren't even supposed to speak to people of another faith tradition about religion lest we be contaminated by error--theirs, not ours. It wasn't too many years removed from the time our pastory forbade us to go to my father's Lutheran church for a dinner to honor him for his work in his parish. Our not being there was a great sorrow he bore simply because our pastor didn't want us to hear a Lutheran minister offer a food blessing.
BOB
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Indeed, Theophan, even the Greek Catholics were considered suspect.
When I attended St. Anne's Melkite Greek Catholic Church in Los Angeles in the early 1990s, the neighboring St. Charles Borreomeo Roman Catholic Church down the street printed in the bulletin and spoke from their pulpits that visiting St. Anne's Melkite Church was absolutely forbidden as they were considered to be in schism. Unfortunately, I think that the beloved Archbishop Zoby's book, "We Schismatics", only added to their confusion.
Last edited by Elizabeth Maria; 05/20/08 01:16 PM.
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To claim that the Antiochian Orthodox Church is practically willing to enter into communion with the Roman Catholic Church is simply not true. Where did you get this?
In Christ,
John
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Indeed, Theophan, even the Greek Catholics were considered suspect.
When I attended St. Anne's Melkite Greek Catholic Church in Los Angeles in the early 1990s, the neighboring St. Charles Borreomeo Roman Catholic Church down the street printed in the bulletin and spoke from their pulpits that visiting St. Anne's Melkite Church was absolutely forbidden as they were considered to be in schism. Unfortunately, I think that the beloved Archbishop Zoby's book, "We Schismatics", only added to their confusion. This is the third or fourth time I have read you post this defamatory claim about one Catholic parish declaring from the pulpit and bulletin that Catholics could not go to a Melkite Church. Beyond behing exasperatingly difficult to imagine ANY Los Angeles Parish preaching from pulpit and bulletin in such a fashion to begin with, I am having a really tough time having this simply be thrown out (now on several occasions) without any evidence to back up the veracity of this remarkably extraordinary claim about something you are claiming happened a decade ago. Doing my own due dilligence I have called the parish - anyone here can contact them via http://stcharlescatholicschool.org/ and asked if this is still what they teach. I was told that "No, the melkites are Catholic too" and no one I spoke with was aware of this Church in North Hollywood preaching from pulpit and bulletin against their Melkite neighbors. If it even did happen that way, it is long forgotten. One wonders if any of them had even heard of the late Bizhop Zogbhy's book. Can we get away from coming back to this unverified rumor that today is most certainly not the working situation of that parish if it ever was?
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Simple Sinner,
Such things as Elizabeth Maria do happen, though I hope they occur much less often now then in earlier days. Back about 1988 when Ascension Byzantine Catholic Church in Williamsburg purchased a church building and welcomed their first pastor, St. Bede Roman Catholic Church welcomed the new parish and pastor but reminded the people that they could not take communion in a Byzantine Catholic Church (a copy of the bulletin is in my files somewhere). It was so ironic since the same bulletin announced some sort of ecumenical service effort with the local Presbyterian Church.
At the official level I am sure that every Roman Catholic bishop knows about Eastern Catholics and deals with us appropriately. At the local parish level it appears we still have work to do to get the word out. In recent years I've known Byzantine parents who have moved to places where there were no Byzantine parishes and had their young children refused Communion until after the pastor checked with his bishop that it was OK. I myself have been in a Roman Catholic parish where I (without thinking) crossed my arms and wound up having to tell a deacon (who was distributing Communion) that I was indeed a Catholic. At the internet level I regularly receive e-mails telling me that we need to return to Roman Catholicism. [Of course, evangelizaton is the reason for the existence of this website!]
John
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An online friend is doing a paper for school on East and West Church relations. What information can you give him on various agreements, meetings between Orthodoxy and Catholicism? You could probably look through this link and find a number of topics. Are you looking to focus on theological discussions? The process itself? Is there a particular Eastern Church you are most interested in? There have been separate discussions between both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church with the various non-Chalcedonian Churches. A paper reviewing the status of those two sets of discussions would be most interesting.
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Simple Sinner,
Such things as Elizabeth Maria do happen, though I hope they occur much less often now then in earlier days. Back about 1988 when Ascension Byzantine Catholic Church in Williamsburg purchased a church building and welcomed their first pastor, St. Bede Roman Catholic Church welcomed the new parish and pastor but reminded the people that they could not take communion in a Byzantine Catholic Church (a copy of the bulletin is in my files somewhere). It was so ironic since the same bulletin announced some sort of ecumenical service effort with the local Presbyterian Church... John it isn't that it is not possible that these things happen. My point is that continued mention of this sort of story and revisiting this possible episode (North Hollywood parishes having the reputation they do...) is good for little more then stirring up some resentment and revisiting some sad episodes. Here in 2008, contact the parish and see how that plays out? The different rather helpful parties of the named parish (I looked them up and called myself today) were most certainly aware that the Melkites were fully Catholic, and all Catholics good go there for a visit and take communion.
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Dear Simple Sinner,
Due to the much beloved Pope John-Paul's encyclicals, the Roman Catholics in Los Angeles are now more educated. Since about 1996, Roman Catholic confirmation classes have regularly visited Melkite, Romanian, Ruthenian, and other Byzantine Catholic parishes to experience the "other lung" of the church by attending a Byzantine Divine Liturgy. This is helping, but some adults still have not got the message.
In addition, every year the community colleges and other colleges mandate that their religious science or theology students visit different churches or temples: Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. Students must visit a church outside of their own faith. I know of several colleges who regularly bus their students to the Melkite, Byzantine, Antiochian, or OCA parishes to experience a Divine Liturgy. On Palm Sunday of this year, a college class studying Russian history visited the OCA parish I attend and even participated in the procession around the church with their professor leading them. Afterwards, our pastor welcomed them with refreshments and a short lecture followed by questions and answers.
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