www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News UOC/KP Patriarch Filaret visits UGCC Parish in US

On 26 June 2003, Patriarch Filaret participated in an ecumenical prayer service in the Ukrainian Catholic parish in the city of New Port, praying for mercy and a better fate for the Ukrainian people. In his sermon, Patriarch Filaret thanked Fr. Severyn, pastor of the Ukrainian Catholic community in New Port, for this special event that gathered together Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant faithful. “Christianity is divided only because of sin and we should remember that only God unites us,” said Patriarch Filaret.

“No matter how long you have lived here, love has been preserved in your hearts to uphold the independent state,” said the Ukrainian patriarch at the reception in St. Andrew's center. “You have dreamt of the independence that our state has today, but, in order to develop it, a strong spiritual basis is needed. If the spiritual basis is missing, there won't be an independent state. For us, the spiritual basis is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, because they have taken a patriotic stand. If the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate continues to exist in Ukraine, Ukraine will continue to exist as well.”

Source: www.uaorthodox.org [uaorthodox.org]

I think that when Patriarch Husar moves into Kyiv, things are going to change. Eastern Ukrainians who are Orthodox and even the Russkies will look at us differently and close relationships and brotherly ties like the molebon celebrated at St Volodymyr's church (Turin Shroud) with both Patriarchs praying together will start to bring us closer and closer, until one day we are one church. This is a fact because it has already begun and it's inevitable, and I pray for this.
Lauro

There is an excellent reply from our own Dr. Alex Roman regarding Patriarch Filaret at:
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/patriarchf.htm

Diak<<There is an excellent reply from our own Dr. Alex Roman regarding Patriarch Filaret at:
http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/patriarchf.htm
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Posts: 1764 | From: Kansas | Registered: Mar 2002 | IP: Logged |>>

This, from a canonical Eastern Orthodox POV, is utter nonsense. Please unsubscribe me from this forum.

OrthodoxEast

Since when is the concept of autocephaly within Orthodoxy nonsense?

I'm sure the Patriarchate of Constantinople had similar comments about the Bulgarian Orthodox Church initially as well when she first pursued autocephaly.

My knowledge of acronyms is not all that it might be. What is "a canonical Eastern Orthodox POV"? Perhaps I should eat alphabet soup more often.

Incognitus

POV = Point of View

In Christ,
Anthony

OrthodoxEast,

In the end only God will be the judge. He knows the struggle; he knows the countless number of people who died for the Church in Ukraine so that the people may worship free of bondage of foreign entities.

On earth, people may say that the church is uncanonical, buty is that what God sees? I doubt He says in His Infinite Wisdom, "Oh, this church isn't recognized by some other Orthodox Churches- so they are heretics!"

God knows the struggle. God knows the will of our people. He knows them through the blood of our martyrs for the endless pursuit of a united Kyivan Church.

OrthodoxEast:

I was wondering how long it would take you to reach this point.

Haven't you figured out by now that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is not based on the canons of the church, doctrinal purity or correctness, or even Hierachal loyalty (unless, of course, the particular Hierach has a Ukrainian DNA). Rather, its based on nationalism, politics, and ethnic hatred. Or at least, that's how it appears to an outsider who reads some of their posts here and elsewhere. What other conclusion can one come to?

To those Ukrainians who are about to explode right about now, I ask that you go back and reread the subject matter and content of the vast majority of your posts and try and look at it from an outsiders view point.

OrthodoxEast, you have been here long enough to see it for yourself. Ask them what doctines they are required to accept as a so called sui juris church within the Roman Catholic spectrum. And, if you get ten replies you will probably also get ten different answers. So much for doctrinal purity and correctness as a important part of their Church!

Reread their discussions on whether Cardinal Husar is a Patriarch or a Cardinal. They accept the Pope as 'Vicar of Christ on Earth' with 'Universal' jurisdiction but hey, who cares that the Pope denies Husar the title of Patriach. They'll do what they want anyhow regardless of what the Pope says or thinks. They'll just be more careful when the Pope is around! Their words not mine. So much for Hierachal loyalty!

Unfortunately this pheltyism regarding Ukrainism first above all else, has crept into the Orthodox Church in the Ukraine as well. And the result has been the creation of two separate uncanonical so called Ukrainian Orthodox entities that are not recognized by any canonical Orthodox Church in the world (including the EP). Denisenko caught on to this pretty quick and like all the rest, tries to use it to his advantage.

Doesn't it seem funny that 'Orthodox Catholic' (Alex) is none other than Dr Alex Roman who is a moderator and adminstrator of the Q & A section of a Ukrainian Orthodox website? Ukrainianism first, religious identity second. Guess Ukraine comes first, God comes second. Or so it seems when you come in here and read some these posts. I was just told by a former Ukrainian Catholic that when he joined his former UGC parish he had to sign a paper to be willing to fight for Ukraine if need be! What does that have to do with joining a Church?

Anyhow, in his reply on this particular site Alex insinuates Denisenko left the ROC of his own accord and has always been a Ukrainian patriot. Nothing could be further from the truth. Denisenko was finally excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox Church for various reasons. Some mentioned in the Question that was asked on the Ukrainian Orthodox site referred to. When he was relieved of his duties he took an oath on the Bible to honor his being sanctioned. As soon as he got back to Ukraine he turned his back on that oath! And was excommunicated because of it. And only then became what appears a a Ukrainian patriot.

Between the death of Patriarch Pimen and the election of Patriarch Alexi he acted as 'Locum Tenents' of the Russian Orthodox Church. During that time he was very much the loyal member of the Russian Orthodox Church with a Russian identity.

Going back to some back issues of the 'Journal of the Moscow Patriarchate' (1990) during his tenture as 'Locum Tenents' lets examine some of the statements he made -

Volume 9, 1990 excerpts from Filaret's address to the local council to elect a new Patriarch ......

"At this hour we must all join in a concilliar prayer that the Holy Spirit may enlighten our minds and hearts for electing in our midst the Patriarch of Moscow and ALL RUSSIA.
<snipe>
The millennial history of the Russian Orthodox Church, and the bimillenial experience of Universal Orthodoxy clearly attest to the fact that departures from the purity of the faith and the fullness of tradition lead only to strife and schisms tearing apart the tunic of Christ. [Comment: Considering what he did in the future these turned out to be empty words].
<snipe>
The time has come to reveal the witness of our conciliar ministry and learn therein God's will concerning the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church."

Volume 8, 1990

At the funeral of Patriarch Pimen Filaret addresses Anatoly Lukyanov with the following address:

"Esteemed Anatoly Ivanovic; In these mournful minutes allow me, on behalf of the Holy Synod, the entire episcopate, the monastic community, AND ALL THE FAITHFUL CHILDREN OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH, to express our sincere gratitude to THE PRESIDENT OF OUR COUNTRY Michail Gorbachev, you personally, as the Chairman of the Presidium of the USSR Supeme Soviet, the government OF OUR COUNTRY, as well well as the supreme soviet, the government of the Russian Federation for the deep condolences and the high appraisal of the activity of His Holiness Patriarch Pimen."

Yet Alex portrays him as a loyal Ukrainian brother and therefore some one who is exonerated of any misdeeds.

You know it's funny. Out of all the people who post here Alex is probably the one I dialogue with, and disagree with, the most. But, on the other hand, he's probably the one that I respect the most in spite of our differences. When he reads this he will proably get his Ukie up because once again, I shoot straight from the hip! Probably because I'm a mix breed Slav!

The Ukies are a strange breed. But deep down I understand why. If they would only learn to separate religion and politics. And try not and use the church the way they do. Then maybe they would be seen as mature enough to govern themselves and have the autocephally they desire so much! And should have when they grow up!

OrthoMan

I better go back in exile before the bombs start exploding!

Hey Yobko,

(Orthoman is in the crosshairs...Bombs away!!)

I guess no matter how many times we talk to you, you only resurface to take pitshots at our faith, our people, and Alex (one of the great minds of our church BTW). You are just ignorant of the whole religious situation and history of the peoples of Ukraine.

I am dumbfounded to why you come around to spill your hate and then hide like a coward. Do you just come around to bash our Church? To bash our culture? To bash Alex?

What gives? Why? Would Jesus do that?

Both Orthodox and Catholic alike in Ukraine gave their lives for OUR FAITH. Sure there may be Uniatism; sure there may be "uncanonical" churches- but many a saint died for their belief in Jesus Christ- as expressed through the worshop and tradition of the Kyivan Church.

I hope that we become as spiritually mature as you so that one day we may govern our one church.

May the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you, Orthoman.

-uc

I'd have to say that I see myself as fairly unbiased regarding this disagreement, since I not one iota of Slavic blood flows in my veins, as far as I know.

I can honestly see both sides of this. I understand the horrors the Ukrainian people and state have undergone, both from within and without. I understand the close ties between church and state are grounded in the Ukrainian mindset. I sympathize for all Ukrainians because of this.

However, OrthoMan has a perfectly valid point. It really does seem to outsiders that the Ukrainian state comes first, and religious affiliation second. This would seem to be the reason why a Church of the Catholic Communion and a seemingly uncanonical Orthodox Church have bonded against the ultimate foe: not heterodoxy, heresy, or schism, but the Russian Church. It's simply very difficult for a non-Ukrainian to understand or sympathize with this.

Call me a visionary, but this issue is certainly not going to be settled on this forum because of the simple fact that we have here clearly divided sections: Ukrainians (or part-Ukrainians) and non-Ukies.

Logos Teen

I just made a few corrections to this part of Mr. Tallick's post. I must say I agree 100% with the corrected version.

In Christ,
Anthony


Haven't you figured out by now that the Moscow Patriarchate is not based on the canons of the church, doctrinal purity or correctness, or even Hierachal loyalty (unless, of course, the particular Hierach has a Russian DNA). Rather, its based on nationalism, politics, and ethnic hatred. Or at least, that's how it appears to an outsider who reads some of his posts here and elsewhere. What other conclusion can one come to?

I could ask 10 different Orthodox what canonicity means and I will likely get 11 answers, and most would not even know definitively which churches theirs are "in communion" with.

The MP cannot bear the loss of its mother Church of Kyiv. But it is happening. The faith came from Kyiv to Moscow, not the reverse. And Kyiv is regaining its rightful ecclesiastical dignity, step by step.

The ridiculous behavior of Alexei II continues to speak for itself. He was probably the best press agent for the Pope's visit to Ukraine. We didn't have to do or say anything as Ukrainians. Alexei II took care of that for us.

Where is the hatred? The hatred is obviously against Ukrainian Catholics and Orthodox as evidenced by the rantings above. The hatred is against the idea and presence of Greek Catholics, of Orthodox in communion with Rome. Why would anything else be expected from the church of Alexei II/Agent Droxhdov and his fellow Soviet era appointees in the MP who are witnessing the loss of their grip on Ukraine.

If we are going to question the faith of entire churches, as has been done above, let's be fair and include the current Patriarch Alexei II of Moscow who was a member of the Communist party, a KGB operative and who has never, repeat never, publicly or privately renounced the heresy of heresies of athiestic Communism.

Is he just afraid of losing his power and prestige? Or is he a consummate apostate and heretic holding to communist ideals? I for one would take a very different view and approach to the MP and do penance if he would take the courage to do this.

Dear Teen, do you know anything about what happened to the Ukrainian Catholic Church in 1946 and after? Why the Pope made a special trip to be present for the canonization of martyrs under the Communist yoke? I don't expect sympathy but a rudimentary knowledge of recent history would be nice.

Diak,

Very well said.

-uc

Although I hold no brief for the MP, I can't see how in Alex's answer to the question about "Filaret" excusing him for his work in the MP during the Soviet years and loyalty to that State, we still bandy about the KGB label for Patriarch Alexei??? It just does not seem consistant. Both of these Church leaders lived under a system, we can only imagine. Few distinguished themselves for their bravery against that State. Few are called to be Martyrs. Filaret and Alexei both were among those who were not the bravest. Just don't call one "Agent" this or that without mentioning that Filaret also had links to the Soviet State.